Prewar Epiphone question about truss rods or lack of

**10course** · 12-19-2015, 12:52 AM

I came across someone selling a 1937 Deluxe (most likely refinished) for a decent price. It sounded good and was better sounding than his other guitar which was an L12.

However, I made a remark that I thought the strings were too light (11's) and that I bet it would really come alive if 13-56 were used. He said that the 11s were best but offered no reason. I then discovered that there was no truss rod.----mystery solved in my mind. More than that, an internet search revealed many prewar Epis don't have them. ---Yet, many people like or even prefer old Epis.

Putting 13-56 on an old guitar with no truss rod just sounds like a bad idea to me. What are other peoples experiences with this issue? Is this part of why Epis cost less?

I talked myself out of the guitar based on this, but could still buy it if I move quickly.

**skykomishone** · 12-19-2015, 01:47 AM

It's not a problem. The guitars were designed to have much greater size strings than .13-.56. That's what is commonly used on these vintage instruments. My '36 emperor's neck is straight and true. The truss rod is non-adjustable. Nicest guitar I've ever owned. If you have a chance to grab a '37 deluxe at a decent price, I would, if it's in decent shape. These are some of the finest archtops ever built. Any guitar of that vintage, truss rod or not, would benefit from a neck reset and fretboard work, if it hasn't been done. It goes with age. Notwithstanding, Epiphone was at the top of the game then. A much rarer guitar than Gibson, and highly regarded.

**bigdaddyguitar** · 12-19-2015, 01:56 AM

Not all Epi guitars back then had truss rods that we see on Gibsons because Gibson held the patent for awhile . So the other companies , like Epi , Gretsch and even Martin had to come up with some cleaver ways to reinforce their necks . The more expensive Epis had some reinforcement , but the cheaper models did not . The De Luxe was the top of the line and in 1937 it was fitted with what Epi called the "thrust" truss rod . The Tudor was the next in line , and in 1934 it was equipped with the nonadjustable " expansion truss " reinforcement . The Tudor was discontinued in 1936 . The Broadway in 1934 , was equipped with the patented expansion truss reinforcement . Not until after WW2 did all models have a truss rod . If the neck is straight , go for it . Epi made some fine archtops back then . Kept Gibson on their toes .

**10course** · 12-19-2015, 02:29 AM

So, if it's a re-fin, it's still worth it? I believe it's a re-fin because it's blonde, and I've read that blonde was not offered until 1939 or 40. I'm not a collector, just a player. ---But the temptation of owning a piece of jazz guitar history was (and is) pulling at me!
A re-fin doesn't bother me UNLESS it means I'll be stuck with it or take a loss if selling. What do you think?

**Jabberwocky** · 12-19-2015, 03:12 AM

Originally Posted by 10course

So, if it's a re-fin, it's still worth it? I believe it's a re-fin because it's blonde, and I've read that blonde was not offered until 1939 or 40. I'm not a collector, just a player. ---But the temptation of owning a piece of jazz guitar history was (and is) pulling at me!
A re-fin doesn't bother me UNLESS it means I'll be stuck with it or take a loss if selling. What do you think?

Of course, it is worth it...as a guitar. Just don't pay collector's price for it. A re-finish does not diminish its functionality as a guitar but as a collector's item, you are in a different realm with a different set of values.

Rule of thumb: market value of original finish x 0.5. If it plays and sounds great and you bond with it, it may be worth an extra 10%.

As for what is fair market value, take a gander of the median of dealer listings and take away 20% to 25%.

**campusfive** · 12-19-2015, 03:38 AM

Was this at Norms?

**10course** · 12-19-2015, 03:48 AM

Yep. You have seen it? I was in LA the past three days and stopped in. I didn't make it over to McCabes because of family stuff, but had fun playing all of Norm's archtops.

**travisty** · 12-19-2015, 04:27 AM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Of course, it is worth it...as a guitar. Just don't pay collector's price for it. A re-finish does not diminish its functionality as a guitar but as a collector's item, you are in a different realm with a different set of values.

Rule of thumb: market value of original finish x 0.5. If it plays and sounds great and you bond with it, it may be worth an extra 10%.

As for what is fair market value, take a gander of the median of dealer listings and take away 20% to 25%.

With the possible exception that it was a well-known player's guitar which got its re-fin at Epiphone early in its life, in which case it might be worth original. Maybe not, but closer to original. But only IF you have the receipt.

As to truss rods... I have one 17" acoustic archtop which has the clearest tone, the most cutting sound and volume (loudest I own by far - will rock a 1000sqft room), but plays pick super nicely, has the strongest natural reverb of any guitar I know of (I know it's natural because it has no pup), carries 13s, and with roundwounds (haven't tried flats) has the sustain of an amplified electric (a single bass note will still be resonating 15-20 seconds later).

It is 55-60yrs old, has no truss rod, and its neck is straight as an arrow. I love it and it is the only guitar I own which I expect will never get replaced by something else.

**oldane** · 12-19-2015, 05:44 AM

FWIW, I don't have an Epi Deluxe, but I have an old low end Gretsch New Yorker. It doesn't have an adjustable truss rod but has some other kind of neck reinforcement. I have had anything from 11-50 to 14-56 on it. The difference in string gauge has meant absolutely no difference to the slight (and perfect) neck releif.

As others have said, don't fear. That old Deluxe was built for medium to heavy strings. Likely it won't show its full potential with the 11 set.

**stringmaster** · 01-21-2016, 11:29 PM

I assume the early Masterbuilt Epi Emperors did not have truss rods? So the ones with the triangle inlay where a truss rod cover would be are sans truss rod? What year did the Emperors not have a rod, and when was it added (and how can you tell--i.e. truss rod cover)?

**icr** · 01-21-2016, 11:55 PM

One trick is to refret with frets that have a tang slightly wider then the fret slot. This makes the fingerboard bend backward. There is a real art to that, too much and it is really messed up.

**bigdaddyguitar** · 01-22-2016, 10:49 AM

By 1934-35 , a " patented expansion truss " was standard on all upper line Epi necks . A patent application was filed by Epi on Aug 2 ,1937 and was granted on Feb 28 , 1939 . After then it was called the " exclusive and patented Epiphone Thrust rod " in catalogues and was standard on all archtops . The rod ended under the fret board extension and the top of the guitar . This is where the adjustment nut was . By 1952 the adjustment was moved to the peghead and a truss rod cover was used to hide it .

**stringmaster** · 01-22-2016, 12:32 PM

Thanks Big Daddy--My '34 Masterbuilt Deluxe has no adjustable truss rod, so from your info it appears that it may have a non-adjustable/visible rod--and the adjustable "Thrust rod" would be equipped on guitars after '39? I assume that the adjustment at the fretboard end would be easily visible/accessed? Thanks for any clarification.

**skykomishone** · 01-22-2016, 12:34 PM

I think that is correct, that there is a rod, it's just not adjustable. Nothing is exposed.

One of the first things I did when I received my '36 Emperor Masterbilt was to have it refretted and plecked. It's the nicest neck of all my guitars, and I have some nice ones. The luthier that did it, Mike Lull, said the neck isn't going anywhere. Anyone concerned about this issue in these early Epi's is probably barking up the wrong tree. They're wonderful. I certainly love mine.

**stringmaster** · 01-22-2016, 12:37 PM

Yes my Deluxe was masterfully refretted and set up by Andy Powers--he built a little relief into the fretwork/neck and it plays awesome!

**Dennis D** · 01-22-2016, 12:48 PM

.....FWIW - my luthier readily admits he'll do whatever he can NOT to crank on a truss rod from that era.......he'll try everything else first.....there's a bunch of tricks and a good luthier will know them all.....

..in fact I had to remind him last time " this L-7 is a '52, not a '36, so use the TR if you have to "...

**skykomishone** · 01-22-2016, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Dennis D

.....FWIW - my luthier readily admits he'll do whatever he can NOT to crank on a truss rod from that era.......he'll try everything else first.....there's a bunch of tricks and a good luthier will know them all.....

..in fact I had to remind him last time " this L-7 is a '52, not a '36, so use the TR if you have to "...

That's a good one!

**Jake Johnson** · 12-06-2018, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by bigdaddyguitar

By 1934-35 , a " patented expansion truss " was standard on all upper line Epi necks . A patent application was filed by Epi on Aug 2 ,1937 and was granted on Feb 28 , 1939 . After then it was called the " exclusive and patented Epiphone Thrust rod " in catalogues and was standard on all archtops . The rod ended under the fret board extension and the top of the guitar . This is where the adjustment nut was . By 1952 the adjustment was moved to the peghead and a truss rod cover was used to hide it .

Do you know if this thrust rod floated above the face of the guitar, or rested on the face? (See the photo of my Epi Broadwood in the Gear forum.)

**anjojigs** · 05-08-2022, 07:45 AM

Just confirming that my 1945 (or so I heard) epi Olympic archtop has a truss rod. I am currently using flat wounds with .11 on lightest and I am surprised that it has the tension I like. My luthier warned against heavier strings, but it is good to hear the advice of others here. If I choose to go for the Dave Rawlings sound (Gillian Welch- Americana) I may try light acoustic roundwounds. I paid $750 for this guitar as a project, and it came with a volume and tone pot installed in raised pickguard. My luthier installed this along with my thin lace pickup. Maybe a travesty but it is fun to play acoustic or electric. Unique sound either way to my ears.

**archtopdream63** · 02-08-2024, 09:34 PM

have you ever installed an adjustable modern truss rod on a pre 1939 epiphone archtop?

**stevo58** · 02-09-2024, 05:27 AM

Originally Posted by Jake Johnson

Do you know if this thrust rod floated above the face of the guitar, or rested on the face? (See the photo of my Epi Broadwood in the Gear forum.)

On my ‘50 Devon (with thrust rod) it floats above the top. When it rests on it, it’s time for a neck reset.

**daverepair** · 02-09-2024, 12:06 PM

I own and have worked on quite a few NY Epiphones. The pre-thrust-rod(non-adjustable neck) guitars sometimes need a refret, to correct excessive relief(especially those that have apparently sat, unplayed, for many years). But, IME, once the refret/relief correction is done, they have been very stable. That is similar to most any non-adjustable neck Martin. I usually use 13-56 bronze strings on my Epis, with no problems.

The adjustable thrust rod often doesn't work at all(it's stripped, or broken), or unevenly. Occasionally...they work as intended! Again, IME. If it doesn't work, I treat it as a non-adjustable Martin neck, and refret accordingly.

I have replaced a broken thrustrod, on a well worn '38 Broadway. But in retrospect, it may have been unnecessary(I probably could have corrected the relief with a refret).

**archtopdream63** · 02-09-2024, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by daverepair

I own and have worked on quite a few NY Epiphones. The pre-thrust-rod(non-adjustable neck) guitars sometimes need a refret, to correct excessive relief(especially those that have apparently sat, unplayed, for many years). But, IME, once the refret/relief correction is done, they have been very stable. That is similar to most any non-adjustable neck Martin. I usually use 13-56 bronze strings on my Epis, with no problems.

The adjustable thrust rod often doesn't work at all(it's stripped, or broken), or unevenly. Occasionally...they work as intended! Again, IME. If it doesn't work, I treat it as a non-adjustable Martin neck, and refret accordingly.

I have replaced a broken thrustrod, on a well worn '38 Broadway. But in retrospect, it may have been unnecessary(I probably could have corrected the relief with a refret).

does the prewar epi has t-rod bar? square? ebony reinforced bar?

**daverepair** · 02-09-2024, 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by archtopdream63

does the prewar epi has t-rod bar? square? ebony reinforced bar?

Sorry, I don't know.

I posted this question over at the FB page ‘The Unofficial NY Epiphone Group’, an excellent source for info on these instruments. The answers indicate that from ‘31-‘34 the guitar necks had a metal spline under the fingerboard(like Epiphone banjos from the same years), and from ‘34-‘37 the guitars had a wooden(maple) spline. In ‘38 they began using the adjustable thrust rod. But I have not myself removed the fingerboard on any ‘31-‘37 instruments. The type of neck reinforcement used is sometimes apparent when the nut is removed, IME.