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Hi, seriously considering one of these for my DA. Any experiences here on the board?
Thanks, Joe D
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12-17-2015 08:39 PM
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Hi, Joe.
No experience, but I have been considering one of these for my classical. As you probably know, Buscarino has been putting these in his Cabaret line (et al.). I also see them around more often in other places.
You might be interested in this and related videos (hope link works). May help you get an idea of their potential for reproducing sound.
Congrats on the DA, BTW!
Larry
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251 has it on his Buscarino Cabaret. You could ask him, Joe.
I like what I hear here:
Ermmm, don't make holes in your '35 D'Angelico Excel, please. Route the wiring and jack on the pickguard.
It does have a sound of its own but a nice "acoustic" sound. I don't think the Barbera Soloist is completely transparent to the source. It does preserve a good part of the acoustic character of the strings and archtop but after listening a bit it is clear to me that it does have its own character that it imposes on the instrument.
It depends on your intended application for it. Far more convenient to set up than a pair of good mikes. However, I feel that good mikes like a Neumann are more faithful in capturing the nuances of a good acoustic archtop.
A Barbera Soloist is somewhat of a convenient compromise. Not obviously electric like a floating magnetic pickup, not faithful like a pair of good microphones but a nice sound that sounds like a good acoustic archtop should.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-18-2015 at 02:06 AM.
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Joe,
I have a Barbera Soloist on my Comins Archtop as well as my Buscarino cabaret (nylon string). I think they sound great. Very natural sounding, not 100% like playing acoustically but close. No string noise or body knocking either.
I had to get a second bridge built to accommodate the Barbera to replace my ebony bridge. Mine was wired as shown going to a volume pot on my finger rest. You'll want the 2-1/8" transducer which covers 2-1/16" to 2-3/16" string spacing.
Volume is actually better controlled at the amp in my experience than the pot. When the volume is too low, you can get phasing problems when used together with a KA magnetic pickup. I also use my speaker (Buscarino Chameleon) in two-way mode when I use it. On the archtop, I use a stereo cable into my AI Clarus and control volume discretely on each channel. On the archtop, I use it more for ambience together with the magnetic pickup running the magnetic pickup channel at a higher volume than the Barbera.
You could reach out to Bill to have it installed. His shop is about a 90 minute drive.
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Jabbs, Who is 251?
Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
If there was already a bore in the back of the guitar, there was a tiny additional hole about to be drilled through end block for a Vintage Jack, but since there is no hole and no endpin, I am not making one.
I will do the 1/8" jack under the Pickguard hidden away, ala Johnny Smith. The 1/8 jack requires less force to plug in and pull out and that's good for me. I tried the mic idea before and its too much work. Not convenient for my lazy ass. I even bought a bolt on the wall type of mic stand that can be pulled down when I need it and pushed away when I don't and that didn't work for me. I still have the holes in my wall to prove it.. Thanks buddy
Aha! hands on experience, Nice! Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7
The no string noise and body/fingers on the pickguard noise issue is important to me because I play with a pick 90% of the time and my sloppy picking style didn't not mesh well with my previous soundboard style pickup. I am happy that you say it renders close to the natural sound. Rich explained that it has an "organic" sound which sounds cool, and he laughed when I asked him if I can pick one up at my local Whole Foods, with the coupon..
This would be my only pickup on the guitar and from what I've heard from the Craig Wagner videos it sounds amazing.
The installer that Rich recommended told me to get a pre-amp. He recommended 2, A Fire-Eye Red Eye or a Radial ToneBone. He said the Tone Bone can give infinite adjustability or the Red-Eye give the perfect sound with no adjustments.
The only problem was the length of time the installer needed my guitar, because he has to fabricate a new bridge saddle - 3 weeks! That ain't happening, not this guitar. Not when I can bring it into my tech Brian and stare over his shoulder and leave with it done in 3 hours. Rich wont do the install on my guitar. He just sells the pickup and points you to an installer.
Thanks iim!
Larry, Thanks for your help. I'll check out the videos. If there is no "quack", Im in! Originally Posted by Larry M
Thanks buddy. JDLast edited by Max405; 12-18-2015 at 10:50 AM.
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Incidentally, I want to say that I don't plan on buying a stage preamp for this setup. I need my preamp to act as a DI with a usb out for recording. Neither one of the Preamps I mentioned has a USB out. I think I can get my measely little Zoom G3 to do exactly what I need.
JD
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Joe I strongly advise you against that. Piezo pickups need to be properly "worked out" and I strongly recommend you buy some sort of preamp that is made to receive a passive piezo input... the zoom won't do it. You can get one with an XLR out and solve half of your problems (not sure there is one with usb out).
As a side note if you still find the Barbera a little too piezo check TC Electronics Bodyrez, it does wonders to tame pizeo pickups.
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Great advice.
You know I wonder if it makes sense to look into other bridge style pickups. Not because I want to go cheap (well maybe because I don't have any money left...) but if I need to buy a preamp now we are up $750. If I can get something that will smooth out the pickup a little, then is there anything else out there that will be nice?
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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Hi Joe D,
I know you don't want a mic on a stand, but have you thought about trying a clip-on type condenser mic?
Back when I was gigging, I used a AT Pro35A a lot on my gypsy guitar. I certainly had some frustration with feedback issues, but it was much easier to use than a mic stand and boom, and it was much more truthful sounding than a piezo bridge pickup.
It doesn't seem like a popular solution for archtops, but might be worth a shot.
Cheers, Chris
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+1 Originally Posted by cgratham
Hi Joe D,
I know you don't want a mic on a stand, but have you thought about trying a clip-on type condenser mic?
Back when I was gigging, I used a AT Pro35A a lot on my gypsy guitar. I certainly had some frustration with feedback issues, but it was much easier to use than a mic stand and boom, and it was much more truthful sounding than a piezo bridge pickup.
It doesn't seem like a popular solution for archtops, but might be worth a shot.
Cheers, Chris
I'm using the AT831 with this gooseneck clip with much success on my acoustic archtops.
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Originally Posted by gspirro1
Wow guys, I didn't even think about this. This is definitely an option for sure. I like the fact that its easy, non invasive and you guys say it sounds good, why not! Originally Posted by cgratham
Hi Joe D,
I know you don't want a mic on a stand, but have you thought about trying a clip-on type condenser mic?
Back when I was gigging, I used a AT Pro35A a lot on my gypsy guitar. I certainly had some frustration with feedback issues, but it was much easier to use than a mic stand and boom, and it was much more truthful sounding than a piezo bridge pickup.
It doesn't seem like a popular solution for archtops, but might be worth a shot.
Cheers, Chris
I don't play real loud so this might work. Where is the best place to mount it?
I cant believe I didn't think about this is option!
Thanks guys.
Chris, what are you using on your DA? Did you mount the DeArmond?
JD
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I was just looking at this:
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Hi Joe D, Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
I've almost entirely played my D'A acoustically and am not gigging so haven't spent a lot of time figuring this out.
I have used my Dearmond on the D'A a couple times at home. Mine is not permanently mounted. The plate in the left on the photo goes behind the bridge and has a smaller plate underneath. So I just undo the 2 screws, slide the top plate over the strings and the bottom one under the strings and tighten the screws again. Then slide the pup on the stick and it's done. Takes about 40 seconds.
As for my Audio technica - it's actually an old pro-70 that mounts like in the photo below. I think the mounting of the newer ones is better. I have played with it at home on the D'A. Sound is definitely good. I've not tried it with this guitar at anything more than living room amp volume though, so don't know about feedback. I could mail this one to you if you want to play around with it before buying something.
Cheers, Chris
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Joe,
+1 on the clip on mike over the piezo option. I have the AT Pro 70 and the unimount rig. I use that for my Gypsy guitars (sometimes) on gigs that do not require very much volume. The microphone sound is way more natural and acoustic than any piezo that I have tried. But it does have feedback issues. A bridge piezo will let you get volumes pretty close to a magnetic pickup before feedback. But having that piezo element in the bridge does change the acoustic tone a bit (and not for the better)
The monkey on a stick set up for a Dearmond works better than you might think. The long rod is lower than your strings so it does not get in the way, and the clamp over the strings behind the bridge gives you a built in string dampner, eliminating some overtones on certain strings. Seeing as you have that rig, you should give it the old college try before dismissing it.
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Hi Joe , Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Marc said it better than I could. I've just been playing with the Dearmond and it's really great. Of course it's not a perfect replica of that stunning acoustic sound of your Excel, but it's a very pleasing magnetic pup sound (to my ears anyway). Monkey on a stick means no permanent alterations needed and it's easy to take on/off. Frankly, for me at least, the mic (and related feedback) was too much of a hassle.
If I were looking to play out again, I'd hook on the Dearmond and not think twice about it. If you can't find sounds on-line I could record a quick couple things this w-e to let you hear the sounds I'm getting.
Of course, now you've got to search for one
Cheers, Chris
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I had a K&K Meridian and hated it. The cable was delicate and touching it caused all sorts of annoying scratchy sounds. It was tough to mount, kinda cheap feeling, and it never EQ'd right. I just came to the conclusion that there are only two sounds that work for an acoustic archtop guitar:
1) Playing it acoustically!
2) Mounting a proper magnetic "jazz" pickup
And since I would never mount a permanent pickup on a guitar like yours, I'd go with a DeArmond rod setup for occasional play. And I'd learn to extract pure joy from it acoustically.
Acoustic guitar is its own Zen state, and it yields dividends to settle into that. Classical players know this best. They rarely install pickups, because their instrument produces all the sound it needs all by itself, and they are purists by nature, operating within a very conservative tradition.
All of the best acoustic instruments are like that. Your D'A is one of them. So is a vintage Martin flattop. One installs a pickup only because one truly has to, for the purpose of gigging in certain types of venue. But... one typically doesn't play a treasure like your D'A at such venues.
If you are going to play this at home, do you need a pickup and amplification? Doesn't this masterpiece sound good all by itself, moving air and vibrating against you? Is the pickup just a reflexive back-pedal into what you are accustomed to?
Yes, I'm sure you're annoyed at me and my opinions... so I'll shut up now. I do mean well, though.
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First off, Roger how could I ever get annoyed at someone who is taking valuable out of there life to help me? Never, no way. Respect man. I've developed it for you. Thanks for your opinion. One that's taken much experience to cultivate.
Believe it or not, I want to try the monkey. But in order to do that, I have be serious about it because in order to place it correctly, I'd have remove or trim my pickguard. Just the thought of that makes me nauseous.
I tend to over think EVERYTHING. This no exception. I think I want to try the clip on. One of those AT's will do the trick.
enough of my respected bros here have poo poo'd the Transducer idea, so that's out. With all the mixed feelings about it AND the high cost, forget it.
Joe D
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I did offer to lend you my FHC model, and I meant it. You don't have to trim anything to use it! (Or remove anything, either). It's one of these (not my guitar in the pic):
Notice the flat side that faces the 'guard? That's so you don't have to notch anything. I don't know why the fancier, better sounding models don't do that, but it was also an evolution in their product line I guess. All you do is clamp it to the strings below the bridge, and futz with the positioning. Once you get it set up for a guitar, it works well.
I surely don't mean to be over-bearing. I have strong opinions from my own experience, so I'm just sharing. You're more than confident enough in your own taste to ultimately do what's right for you. I think right now, you just have entered a world with some new stuff in it, and making the wrong step is costly and stressful.
About 10 years ago, I had a long stretch where I barely played electric at all. I dabbled in flattops, archtops, and had a serious year-long deep dive into flamenco. I emerged eventually and started digging electric again. But the acoustic Zen, as I said before, stayed with me. Not only do I play acoustic instruments a lot, I also highly value acoustic qualities in an electric guitar (except solid bodies).
I don't feel like a purist with just any old acoustic guitar. My old L-5, Martin 000-18GE, and Eliasson flamenco blanca are probably the three that put my brain into a trance-like state. They need no pickups! Although full disclosure: I do have a totally invisible Pure Western Mini inside the Martin.
I'm playing my '28 L-5 right now, just to be in the right mood for this thread.
Last edited by rpguitar; 12-18-2015 at 11:40 PM.
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i think the dearmond is going to be closest to your liking..pure vintage...just get a repro pickguard made..then you can experiment to your hearts content..and still be ok
cheers
ps- fws6 makes insane vintage looking guardsLast edited by neatomic; 12-18-2015 at 11:41 PM. Reason: ps-
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i am waiting for him to tell how much and how long to make me one. Originally Posted by neatomic
Yeah your right, the Dearmond is probably the one. And I have one already too..
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Julian Lage seemed to do ok with a just a clip on mic, when he was playing his L5.
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See I would have that on my guitar already if I had one. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I did offer to lend you my FHC model, and I meant it. You don't have to trim anything to use it! (Or remove anything, either). It's one of these (not my guitar in the pic):
Notice the flat side that faces the 'guard? That's so you don't have to notch anything. I don't know why the fancier, better sounding models don't do that, but it was also an evolution in their product line I guess. All you do is clamp it to the strings below the bridge, and futz with the positioning. Once you get it set up for a guitar, it works well.
I surely don't mean to be over-bearing. I have strong opinions from my own experience, so I'm just sharing. You're more than confident enough in your own taste to ultimately do what's right for you. I think right now, you just have entered a world with some new stuff in it, and making the wrong step is costly and stressful.
About 10 years ago, I had a long stretch where I barely played electric at all. I dabbled in flattops, archtops, and had a serious year-long deep dive into flamenco. I emerged eventually and started digging electric again. But the acoustic Zen, as I said before, stayed with me. Not only do I play acoustic instruments a lot, I also highly value acoustic qualities in an electric guitar (except solid bodies).
I don't feel like a purist with just any old acoustic guitar. My old L-5, Martin 000-18GE, and Eliasson flamenco blanca are probably the three that put my brain into a trance-like state. They need no pickups! Although full disclosure: I do have a totally invisible Pure Western Mini inside the Martin.
I'm playing my '28 L-5 right now, just to be in the right mood for this thread.
I might take you up on your offer. That's nice of you RP. Your a mensch.. How was that, convincing?
it looks nice on the 175 too.
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Joe, I think that Guitar Mike is on an L-4 (not a 175). I own two Guitar mikes, a 1000 and have three 1100's fitted on three of my guitars. All sound great and while the clip on mike is useful for quiet gigs, nothing works with an acoustic archtop better than a Dearmond for real world gigs.
You should try Roger's Guitar Mike and see if that floats your boat.
Your pickguard bracket looks adjustable. Try slanting the pickguard down a bit to use your Dearmond 1000 (That is what I do with my 46 Epiphone).
If Frank's pickguard price is too costly, perhaps this:
New Pickguard for L 5 Non Cutaway 5 Ply Binding Tortoise | eBay
Cheap enough and you could have it notched. Keep the perfect Repro Guard that you have and switch them out when you want to/need to go electric.
Lots of choices....but remember, John D'Angelico fitted Dearmonds on his guitars. They are the right pickup for a DA. Just Sayin'...
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Then again, here's some more acoustic inspiration for you (maybe you've watched this):
Hey, his name is even Joe!Last edited by rpguitar; 12-19-2015 at 08:22 AM.
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Joe,
A couple thoughts.
Barbera would use an alternative bridge, would have a sound pot installed beneath your original fingerrest or you could have a luthier make you a replacement fingerrest and bridge. BTW, if you want a pre-amp, John Buscarino will sell you one that plugs into your cable end jack. That way the guitar has the ability to remain original. A clip on mike can capture sound nicely, but has feedback challenges.
It really depends on your goals. Are you after an authentic vintage sound then a Dearmond might be the way to go. If you want to reproduce the sound of the guitar, a microphone can do it, but comes with performance challenges. The Barbera is a great product for someone looking for natural reproduction (not quite as good as a well placed, high quality microphone), in a reliable, convenient, feedback resistant form. The high partal overtones that your guitar produces are best reproduced with a two-way speaker as well.
Ask yourself this, if John was still building guitars today, what would he be using?
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