-
Howdy - I started dabbling in traditional jazz recently.
Normally I bring electric guitar to jam - either 335-ish Ibanez or d'Angelico Excel.
But I thought that perhaps learning a 4 string banjo - either tenor or plectrum - would be nice 2nd instrument.
I asked about it on BanjoHangout and first reply I got was plectrum in Chicago (DBBE) tuning.
That would certainly make it easy to go back an forth between banjo and guitar so I can understand it.
All the other possibilities (17 vs 19 fret tenor), CGDA, CGBD, GDAE tuning make my head spin.
Is there a simple guide somewhere what instrument to pick?
My interest is mostly traditional jazz but I also love Irish music so if I can pick instrument suitable for both
jazz jam and Irish session it would be great. If not then jazz wins.
What is the price at which one gets a reasonably good instrument?
I watched some videos by forum member Rob MacKillop:
I think he plays Deering Eagle II plectrum banjo. Sounds great - very round and mellow in his videos.
But that is $2600 instrument. I can get together maybe $1500 now.
But if $2600 what you need to spend then OK - I can save that much.
Just do not want to outgrow the instrument too quickly.
All my guitars are close to $1K (with one exception of custom one that was $2500+).
So I see the value of decent instrument - just do not know how expensive banjos should be to get out of "student" instrument category.
Thanks for any pointers/info.
-
12-13-2015 12:26 AM
-
woland- i think u meant chicago dgbe tuning!..thats the tuning johnny st cyr!! used...(and also how tiny grimes tuned his tenor guitar! btw)
i know there are many "americana" type instruments out now..gretsch etc..but couldn't recommend
however would like to applaud (yet again) rob m..what a maestro of all things string!! bravo
luck in your quest
cheers
corrected my orig post as i crossed the names of my louie A players...johhny st cyr played the 6 string banjo in guitar tuning..(there was another recent post about it)..kid ory was on bone...duh
here's all three at disneyland!!
Last edited by neatomic; 12-13-2015 at 06:09 PM. Reason: correction + pic
-
I got tenor banjo, same reason, got into trad jazz, and thought i can double on a banjo. So I've been told by a few studio guitarists if I want to be taken seriously, I have to do CGDA for jazz. You know what, they're right! When I did try to do the Chicago tuning ( DGBE) it didnt sound good at all. Tuning in 5ths works the best. I have 19th fret, btw.
So, I have to admit I havent practice it that much lately, I got plenty of work on guitar, and to be honest, learning all those new chord shapes put me off. I know, I know, no excuses for laziness, but I cant force myself to enjoy it either. I' ve learned a couple of tunes, just rhythm playing, but i cant shred on it, and probably never will.
On the other hand, I met a guitarist on the scene, who got the tenor around the same time, and he already playing gigs and sounds very good. So it all depends I guess if you bond with the instrument.
the price of mine was $1700, Dearing brand.
-
Good info - on tuning - thanks - I think I need to start going to traditional jazz shows and talk to musicians.
Originally Posted by Hep To The Jive
So it seems that you have Deering Boston Tenor - correct? Any buyers remorse - do you think it is worth
saving and getting Sierra or Eagle?
-
Woland, both the plectrum and tenor banjos are used in trad jazz bands, even the six-string, guitar-tuned, banjo was used in Louis Armstrong's hot 5 and 6. But you would not be too welcome at a serious Irish session with anything other than a tenor.
For Irish tenor playing, the tutor books by Enda Scahill are essential.
One drawback for a guitarist is that the tenor has a very difficult tuning and awkward chord shapes which bear no relation to anything you've done before. But the tuning does give great chord voicings, which sound great in a jazz context. If you want to go down this route, I highly recommend a few Skype lessons with Steve Caddick - look him up on youtube. Also check out the Manhattan Minstrel, Eddy Davis, who plays in Woody Allen's band.
For plectrum, you should check out Cynthia Sayer CYNTHIA SAYER | HOME - a fine player and singer. She also gives Skype lessons. Even one or two lessons would point you in the right direction. There is also a two-volume edition by Dave Frey which covers everything you would need to play in a trad jazz band. These books are fairly expensive, but when you get them you will see why. Nothing else comes close.
As for an instrument, Deering are good, but you can get some good-quality period instruments second hand on ebay, but you have to know what you are looking for. In the Deering stock, the Eagle II series has, I think, a warmer tone than the Sierra, but lacks the punch the Sierra provides, which is necessary when playing acoustic with wind instruments. Looking for a lower price, you might try Gold Tone, such as the PS-250: https://www.goldtone.com/product/ps-250/
My banjo interest runs from 1850 to 1920, but earlier this year I sold most of my instruments, all except my plectrum banjo, heard in the video above. Deering made it for me - the first plectrum banjo in the Eagle II series.
Any further questions, just ask.
-
I will second Hep's assertion that the 5th tuning is necessary for jazz. I recall hanging out with Richard Boukas, who does a lot of Broadway and studio gigs in NYC, and him telling me that he tried to get away with 'guitar' tuning on the banjo, but even if he could read the voicings correctly (with difficult stretching and muting...), they just didn't 'speak' as well as when the instrument was tuned in fifths. I don't really play banjo anymore, but I shedded it pretty hard for 2-3 weeks (between getting hired by a Dixieland group for a Southeast Asia tour, and the groups funding falling through...) and got reasonably fluent in the new tuning.
Here's an interesting article I found on the similarities of banjo voicings and the Freddie Green style,
http://www.freddiegreen.org/technique/romani.html
PKLast edited by paulkogut; 12-13-2015 at 12:20 PM.
-
PK, I disagree with one word: instead of necessary, I'd say preferable. The evidence shows clearly that people can and do play jazz on plectrum banjos.
-
There are plenty of great folks to listen to on both tenor and plectrum banjo. Cynthia Sayer is certainly worth a serious listen. Sean Moyses is a pretty terrific plectrum player. Our own Rob MacKillop gets around on the four-string banjo with great facility and authenticity. If you are listening to tenor banjo, give the great jazz guitarist Howard Alden a listen. He is superior.
Lots of tunings are available on both instruments, of course. I agree with Rob that you can make them all work. On tenor banjo, I think that the standard viola/cello tuning--CGDA--sounds best on the instrument. Playing fifths isn't difficult, and if you have any time on the mandolin or violin/viola/cello, then playing the tenor banjo is a snap.
On the plectrum banjo, I think that the CGBD sounds best. This is the tuning that Eddie Peabody and everybody else in the plectrum banjo heyday used. "Chicago," the first four strings of the guitar tuning, works reasonably well for the plectrum banjo, and lots of great players used it.
Whatever. The main thing I would suggest is this: GET A FOUR-STRING BANJO IN YOUR HANDS! Banjo is a great jazz instrument. Listen around. Banjo isn't just for trad jazz, either. It dominated that genre, of course, because the banjo is inherently louder than the guitar. The appearance of the electric guitar killed the four-string banjo. Too bad. The banjo is fun. It is rhythmic.
I played tenor banjo before I was old enough to make chords on a guitar. I still play tenor banjo (plectrum banjo less frequently). FWIW, the tenor is often thought of as the rhythm instrument; the plectrum is regarded as the solo instrument. However, these lines are often crossed. Just get yourself a four string and play!
-
OK I realize this isn't part of the discussion, but what about a guitjo? Kevin Hayes plays one in Old Crow, and he's no slouch and contributes a lot to their sound. (Taylor Swift plays one too, but this is MUCH less relevant to jazz.)
It's not a traditional banjo, but 1) you wouldn't have to learn new tunings, and 2) they are quite cheap and easily available.
As far as the plectrum banjo, I've never played one, but I've read it can be tuned to DGBE like the top 4 strings of a guitar. I do play ukulele, and it's pretty easy to transpose guitar chords to the uke. You could also get a banjo-uke for the same reason.
-
I assume the horrible word "guitjo" is a new term for the six-string banjo in guitar tuning? If so, it has an honourable history in New Orleans trad jazz. Expanding on what I mentioned above, it was played in Louis Armstrong's bands by the great Johnny St Cyr. Don't miss out on reading his recollections of the early days - it's a great read: JOHNNY ST. CYR
So, if you wanted to specialise it that early style, he's your man.
The 6-string banjos of his time, though, were different to the one's we get today. The old ones had a longer string length, which is required for getting a good bass out of the instrument.
Greentone - great post! Just get yourself a banjo, and get playing!
-
Just ran across this youtube video randomly today. Pat Martino and Bela Fleck (and others) playing Oleo, one of my favorite songs.
Check out banjo solo beginning around 4:20.
-
Bela is amazing. That's a five-string bluegrass banjo.
-
Q. What do you call perfect pitch?
A: When you toss an accordion in the dumpster and it hits the banjo laying at the bottom!
-
Interesting - that instrument that Bela plays looks a bit like Gold Tone EBM-5. Originally Posted by bmw2002
It is Deering Crossfire - and he had Roland synth pickup installed.
I wonder if that is where his tone is coming from. Not very banjoee...
-
Thanks a lot, Rob - tons of information. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I looked up Dave Frey book - I believe you meant "The Ultimate Plectrum Banjo Player Guide".
Indeed expensive. Used one is $200 on Amazon.
Also looked up Cynthia Sayer - I will definitely keep her in mind - I am all for lessons - especially
if you are a beginner - I have a friend who dwells on a beginning level guitar for years - mostly
because he wanted to save on lessons so he developed very odd technique that quickly became
a roadblock for progress.
I asked for advice on BanjoHangout forum and was told to check Vinnie Mondello - apparently
he lives somewhere close to Austin - and looking at his website he has a lot of quality vintage
instruments. That could be a preferable way for me - I like touching instrument before buying
it - and seeing if there is perhaps some feeling of instant bonding. Or vice versa. Maybe it is
all in my head but so far it worked for me quite well.
As far as price goes - Sierras are nearly nearly out of reach although if I sell some gears and save
then perhaps not. What is your opinion? Sirra/Eagle or say $1500+ vintage?
-
Oh, definitely go and see Vinnie. He will make sure you get a good banjo, and might even give you a lesson. A vintage that passes through his hands will be properly set up, whereas buying from ebay or craigslist might well get you a banjo that has been set up for Irish playing, the opposite of what you want. Trust Vinnie.
-
Thanks Rob - nice to see that there are people so trusted in their craft. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I emailed Vinnie and here is what he said:
"What matters as much as the scale is the tunings and the gauges of strings required.
The only issue with plectrum and Irish (music) is they play a lot in the 1-7 positions and
usually GDAE (Octave Mandolin) tuning so the spacings are way apart and long fingers are must,
so 19 fret is more universal and more what you may be used to for length, (and also) the shoulder
will notice the longer plectrum neck.
If you want to play it Jazz style in the same tuning as your guitars it is DGBE, you just no longer
have the E and A strings, so ...Bari Uke tuning
Tenor is in fifths lie Cello/Mandolin but in CGDA instead of GDAE
And the tenor will tune CGBD plectrum but you cannot tune a Plectrum to C, the A string is too taut.
So all around the 19 fret 23" scale will be universally best."
I will work with him on getting a specific instruments. May end up selling my Tele and one of my amps.
Anybody wants to buy my longneck baritone Ovation? Great for slack key Hawaiian music
-
Good luck!
-
I do a good share of musicals, so a banjo comes in handy. (examples Hello Dolly, T M Millie, Joseph and the ATD, etc.) I had a nice vintage Paramount C for long time. But the short scale and original tuners were hard to deal with. I wanted a flashy but reasonably priced plectrum. They're not so common, so I bought a fancy gold Morgan Monroe 5-string and removed the 5th string and peg. I use DGBE. I always get huge compliments from other musicians. As long as you voice the cords sparsely and play in an authentic style, there are very few people who will notice the difference. JMO. But I still would like to get a nice real plectrum some day.
-
Dang you guys!
Here I thought I was immune to IAS for awhile after I got the dobro, but now I want a plectrum banjo AND a baritone guitar...
-
The original score for Gershwin's Rhapsody In Blue has a banjo part. It would be great to play that. I think it must have been one or two players from the Paul Whiteman Orchestra. Here's a recording of it:
From the youtube info:
Rhapsody in Blue premiered in an afternoon concert on February 12, 1924, held by Paul Whiteman and his band Palais Royal Orchestra, entitled An Experiment in Modern Music, which took place in Aeolian Hall in New York City. The version that was heard then was for a 24-piece jazz band, not for full orchestra. This was the original arrangement of Gershwin's masterpiece.
Gershwin had agreed that Ferde Grofé, Whiteman's pianist and chief arranger, was the key figure in enabling the piece to be successful, and critics have praised the orchestral colour. Grofé confirmed in 1938 that Gershwin did not have sufficient knowledge of orchestration in 1924. After the premiere, Grofé took the score and made new orchestrations in 1926 and 1942, each time for larger orchestras. Up until 1976, when Michael Tilson Thomas recorded the original jazz band version for the very first time, the 1942 version was the arrangement usually performed and recorded.
The 1924 orchestration for Whiteman's band of 24 musicians (plus violins) calls for the following orchestra: woodwinds (5 players): flute, oboe, clarinet in E-flat, clarinet in B-flat, alto clarinet in E-flat, bass clarinet in B-flat, heckelphone, sopranino saxophone in E-flat, soprano saxophone in B-flat, alto saxophone in E-flat, tenor saxophone in B-flat, baritone saxophone in E-flat; brass: 2 horns, 2 trumpets, 2 flugelhorns, euphonium, 3 trombones, tuba; percussion: drums, timpani, trap set; keyboards: 2 pianos, celesta, accordion; strings: banjo, violins and string basses. Many musicians, especially the reeds, played two or more instruments; the reed "doublings" were especially calculated to take advantage of the full panoply of instruments available in that section of Whiteman's band. Indeed, Grofé's familiarity with the Whiteman band's strengths are a key factor in the scoring. This original version, with its unique instrumental requirements, had lain dormant until its revival in reconstructions beginning in the mid-1980s, owing to the popularity and serviceability of the later scorings.
This performance is by members of the Dallas Symphony Orchestra, with the conducting and piano soloist: Andrew Litton
-
Pit work (musicals) is where you will get the most call for the four-string banjo. At least, for me that is the case. I play it for fun at home, and at parties for a hoot. But, it is in the pits that there is still a call for bringing the old Vega Tu-ba-phone out. (I don't live close enough to Philadelphia to do the Mummer's Parade, although I understand that has evolved into mostly horn bands.)
-
This is so cool, but I scanned through quickly and couldn't find it. Anyone have a time marker(s)? Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
-
Really? Was your experience on tenor banjo pretty easy? For me, it's not easy at all, transitioning from guitar and learning all the new chord shapes... I mean, I can memorize a tune, and I did a few, but playing jazz easyly like i do on the guitar and improvise and have fun is not happening and big frustration. But then again, I never palyed viola or mandolin, so maybe it's a prerequisite for tenor banjo? Originally Posted by Greentone
-
Mine is Maple Blossom model I think. I got it from Ederly, it was used , made in the 90's. I wanted the loudest I could get, that's all I care about with banjos. And it's a mofo'king loud! No regrets at all. Originally Posted by woland
Another reason, I wanted to use it with marching gigs I have to play sometimes with a small band. I didn't get a good reaction from my band mates though. Stick with the guitar they said, hahaha.Last edited by Hep To The Jive; 12-14-2015 at 02:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
Moffa Mithra
Today, 08:31 AM in For Sale