Humbucker pickup - Installing a BRIDGE pick up in the NECK position

[West LA Jazz]

I have been reading about guitarists placing the bridge position pick up in the neck for a sometimes warmer sound (lows and mid range). I'm wondering what the actual results are for anyone who has done this before.
I have an Eastman 185MX semi hollow and I would like to see if I can get a fatter sound from the neck pick up position without eq or effects. The factory specs say I have Seymour Duncans in this guitar but the neck bridge when plugged directly into my amp needs EQ help to get to where I like it.

I've read good things about DiMarzio even though rock comes to mind when thinking of these pick ups. The Airzone (which apparently can give very nice warm sounding tones).

Air Zone? | DiMarzio

It is marketed as a bridge pick up but quite a few comments discuss the bridge pick up in the neck position as a very live option to get that warm sounding tone than I seem to be getting now. This way I don't have to think about the Collings I 35 and its creamy jazz sound! ;-)

At this rate, I'm going to have to learn how to switch out these pick ups myself so I can quit bugging the guitar tech at my local shop.

[vinlander]

Except being higher output to compensate for lack of vibration at the bridge, I don't know what makes a pickup a bridge one vs a neck one. Unless we talk about 2 different pickups. Classic 57 for instance, we can buy a bridge or a neck but they clearly are the same thing, just a different output higher for the bridge usually. Some even use classic 57+ for bridge, but it can be used for the neck if one want a higher output.
Maybe just playing with the height (distance to strings) is easier to raise or lower the output at first.

[docbop]

Some people also put identical PUPs in lots a ways to go. Higher output pickups are usually darker some not as defined, that why when you see PUP makers say things are Vintage they are usually low wind pickup but that low wind results in a fuller warm tone. Other methods are using softer magnets like Alnico II vs V, the II are warmer and V's punchier bass. There are other factors that come into play. I'd say pick a company you like and call them up, it can be very enlightening hearing them explain how the different aspect act. Then tell them what you want and they can suggest a model to try. Last don't forget PUP adjustment can make a lot of difference too without buying anything.

Personally I like the vintage style pickups and then tweak the amp. Then when I get a new guitar or PUP I keep my tools handy to tweak as needed.

[neatomic]

well just remember when gibson introduced the humbucker..there was just one..for neck and/or bridge..and if one happened to be wound a bit hotter than the other, it was just the luck of the draw where it wound up...

then because guitarists wanted a bridge pickup that sounded as loud or louder than the neck pickup..and because of the physics of string vibration, the bridge pickup needs a few extra winds of wire...

that's really the only difference..the bridge pup is wound a bit more..usually same magnets and same build..neck & bridge

only snag is that mia guitars and pickups use a bridge pickup with the polepieces more spaced out..52mm vs 50mm...so the polepieces won't line up with the strings if used in the neck position..so check your sizes!

cheers

[Jim Soloway]

The Airzone is a pretty hot pickup. John Stowell has used on in the neck of some of his guitars but his touch is so light that most neck pickups don't give him enough output. I think most jazz players would find it way too hot. As for DiMarzio, they make some wonderful pickups for jazz. I especially like the 36th Anniversary PAF.

[neatomic]

js-yes that dimarzio 36th anniv sounded classic warm on your recent demo..real good vintage paf repro style


cheers

[West LA Jazz]

The Airzone is a pretty hot pickup. John Stowell has used on in the neck of some of his guitars but his touch is so light that most neck pickups don't give him enough output. I think most jazz players would find it way too hot. As for DiMarzio, they make some wonderful pickups for jazz. I especially like the 36th Anniversary PAF.

Appreciate the thumbs up for DiMarzio. I don't see or hear many jazzers talk about them. They're definitely not as expensive as Lollars (no disrespect to Lollar intended).

Regarding Stowell, I really dig his sound even though his touch is much softer than mine. His note choices on "Turgid" is great. I wonder, I could go Air Zone in the neck and 36th Anniversary in the bridge.... and roll down the tone and see if the AirZone won't run off the ranch so to speak. I could aways change back and irritate the guitar tech at the local store. And for some strange reason his note choices remind me a tad of John Scofield (for "tension" reasons. Incidentally his bass player in this video looks like a past version of Scofield. Thanks!!

This this he plays here looks way fascinating btw. And yes, his soft touch is very obvious in this video.

[West LA Jazz]

@neatomic - I've noticed that the bridge pick ups even though "louder" than the neck pick up lack the low end. I'm guessing that its the distance from the actual neck or some combination of reasons. Bottom line, I need to start working on my own guitar to be able to get immediate feedback from switched pups rather than wait a few days for the tech to complete the job.

@docbop - I love vintage picks ups also. I prefer them on full iollowbodies just because the wider use of styles I like to also play on the semi hollow. I am basically trying to cover more territory on the semi than I would on the full hollow body.

[Robertkoa]

Before you do that you might try to add a few switches or push pull switches on the Volume or Tone controls.

Normally when you add your bridge pickup to your neck pickup ( or move the 5 way switch on a Strat type) - the pickups are added together in Parallel but-

You can have a switch which will add the two pickups together in series which will raise the output increase the bass and mids and usually lower or seem to lower the treble...will it make your Eastman fatter than a 175 or L5 ? Don't know but fatter and you won't lose anything because you can flick( or push pull) the switch back to " normal" at will.

IF you decide to change pickups in the future you will still be able to use this .

The typical Guitar Tips tell you to have pickups close to the strings and I find it better to start with the Pickups very low and see how you like them then gradually go up.

You may find you sound much more polished with the pickups further away- you can pick harder ..softer etc..start low and work your way up especially for the Series / Parallel thing.

In series it may be that you will use the volumes differently ..may get too muddy but probably not especially if pickups are adjusted...

[neatomic]

@neatomic - I've noticed that the bridge pick ups even though "louder" than the neck pick up lack the low end. I'm guessing that its the distance from the actual neck

yep...thats it

cheers

[West LA Jazz]

Before you do that you might try to add a few switches or push pull switches on the Volume or Tone controls.


You can have a switch which will add the two pickups together in series which will raise the output increase the bass and mids and usually lower or seem to lower the treble...will it make your Eastman fatter than a 175 or L5 ? Don't know but fatter and you won't lose anything because you can flick( or push pull) the switch back to " normal" at will.

Thinline T185MX ? Eastman Guitars

The middle position of the existing 3 way switch turns on both pick ups. I'm not sure if that's what you're referring to as "in series"). However, the bridge pick up adds extra high end that is cool for more contemporary sounding stuff. I just switch to the neck pick up on standards. I am probably going to cheat and get the BOSS ME 80. I can boost to my heart's content. Downside is that when I'll have to spend extra time fiddling with the Cube also so that when I go to the local jam session with my Cube, I'll have to find a way to simulate the sound my ear loves with the Cube alone.

IF you decide to change pickups in the future you will still be able to use this .

The typical Guitar Tips tell you to have pickups close to the strings and I find it better to start with the Pickups very low and see how you like them then gradually go up.

You may find you sound much more polished with the pickups further away- you can pick harder ..softer etc..start low and work your way up especially for the Series / Parallel thing.

In series it may be that you will use the volumes differently ..may get too muddy but probably not especially if pickups are adjusted...

This alone tells me I'm going to have to learn how to adjust my own pick ups. I'll persuade the tech at my local store to allow me to test the height in store and then have him do adjustments right away if need be. If he says no, I'm heading over to youtube to finally learn how to tweak my own guitar. I thought tweaking amps was where it ended. Ha.

[palindrome]

Air Zone? | DiMarzio

It is marketed as a bridge pick up but quite a few comments discuss the bridge pick up in the neck position as a very live option to get that warm sounding tone than I seem to be getting now. This way I don't have to think about the Collings I 35 and its creamy jazz sound! ;-)

I once put a Dimarzio Air Zone in the neck position of a MIM Tele Thinline (based on the same info from the Dimarzio website and following the same logic as yours), combined with a Tone Zone in the bridge position. And a 5-way switch for split sounds.

Played both with the original 250k pots for a while, then with 500k pots for another while.

Then I sold the guitar, regretting each and every one of these swaps.

Both of these Dimarzios are very bassy pickups. Ironically, I even preferred the Air Zone with the 250k pots, and, perversely, the most convincing sound from the guitar eventually came from the bridge-position Tone Zone in split (!) mode.

I would confirm that the Air Zone is fairly high output, but it's worth noting that this is not an _awful_ lot more than heard in other PAF-style pickups (considering that the Gibson 57 or Duncan SD59 aren't exactly "low output"). So I wouldn't consider it "too hot" for clean sounds at all, but I did find the built-in (i.e. not inherently output-related) dominance of lows and low mids to be clearly over the top (as far as I am concerned, YMMV).

An Air Zone in the bridge position would be different matter, and the split sounds of these Air pups are surprisingly good (if memory serves, the Dimarzio guys do mention this on their website).

[Para]

I have a Seth Lover SH55n at the neck of a Gibson ES175 they are unpotted and it has a lovely smooth airy sound.

[BigToe]

I've been winding pickups for the last 7-8 years and even though I am by no means an expert I have made some observations that might be useful. For starters, every pickup has a resonant peak which can determine the "character" of the pickup (I won't bore you with technicalities). Many things can effect where the peak is on the frequency spectrum (wire thickness, amount of steel, amount of carbon in the steel, wire placement, coil shape, magnet type). One major effect is the amount of wire wrapped around the bobbins. Typically less windings will create a resonant peak higher on the frequency spectrum which results in a brighter sounding pickup. More windings will move the RP towards the midrange and even more windings will cause the high end to be shadowed by a fairly wide Q in the midrange of the pickup.

All this to say higher or lower output has little to do with the tonal character of a pickup. It is just a product of the pickup construction. For example I can make an over wound pickup sound very quite by regulating the magnet's strength, or have the coil far from the strings etc.

For jazz, first one has to decide what style of jazz, which will determine which pickups to choose. For archtops I prefer an unpotted pickup with a high resonant peak. You are going to get more of the acoustic properties come though in the signal, which you can then regulate with your amp. For solid bodies there are probably more choices. For more fundamentals and less acoustic overtones a pickup with a RP in the midrange will get you that beefy deep tone. Or perhaps a potted pickup (although I'm not a fan personally).

To somewhat answer the OPs questions yes, switching out the neck pickup for the bridge will probably get you a deeper and beefier tone. However IMO the neck position is a pretty warm sounding spot for a pickup. Moving the RP toward the mids might make it too beefy. Certainly no harm in trying. the effect could be mitigated by lowering the height of the pickup...so many ways to skin a cat!

if your happy with the tone generally I would try adjusting the height of the pickup and even screw height. I know guys who like low pickups but crank the screw up. Next, switching out the pots for different values. And honestly, you might also consider switching the speaker in your cabinet, which can have a dramatic effect on your tone!

Welcome to the rabbit hole

[D.G.]

I put a pair of Kent Armstrong stealth p90's (noiseless) in a Tele and ended up putting the bridge pickup in the neck and vice versa. The bridge wind has more mids, far closer to a traditional p90, so the neck position worked much better for jazz for me. The neck wind is very, very bright, and putting it into the bridge position gets a tone closer to a trad tele bridge sound. All just a happy coincidence!

[West LA Jazz]

I once put a Dimarzio Air Zone in the neck position of a MIM Tele Thinline (based on the same info from the Dimarzio website and following the same logic as yours), combined with a Tone Zone in the bridge position. And a 5-way switch for split sounds.

Played both with the original 250k pots for a while, then with 500k pots for another while.

Then I sold the guitar, regretting each and every one of these swaps.

Both of these Dimarzios are very bassy pickups. Ironically, I even preferred the Air Zone with the 250k pots, and, perversely, the most convincing sound from the guitar eventually came from the bridge-position Tone Zone in split (!) mode.

I would confirm that the Air Zone is fairly high output, but it's worth noting that this is not an _awful_ lot more than heard in other PAF-style pickups (considering that the Gibson 57 or Duncan SD59 aren't exactly "low output"). So I wouldn't consider it "too hot" for clean sounds at all, but I did find the built-in (i.e. not inherently output-related) dominance of lows and low mids to be clearly over the top (as far as I am concerned, YMMV).

An Air Zone in the bridge position would be different matter, and the split sounds of these Air pups are surprisingly good (if memory serves, the Dimarzio guys do mention this on their website).

I appreciated the detail on the Air Zone. I like to have the high output so long as I can control the volume and "sand" off the edges of the tone with the tone knob. I am going to run this through a Boss ME 80 to give a huge palette of sounds. I just watched a jazz musician having a heated argument that music and technology have always gone hand in hand...


@ Big Toe - Grteat detail on the winding process. I might end up doing that one day. For now I am going to see if I can raise the height of the pick ups. First I'll watch some Youtube videos. If I fail, I'll go piss off the tech at the local store. He gets irritated when I want to wait for him to finish.

@ Robertkoa - Good stuff. I'm going to tweak and see what the results are. Thanks!