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After a myriad of mentions about the Tweed Deluxe in Van Gelders studio – and overexposition of Neil Young & Crazy Horse music – I finally purchased a 5e3 clone. With Eminence Texas Heat speaker.
Now I try to learn to understand this primitive piece of iron and glass. It distorts easily. When it does not distort it sound upper mid spiky. What do I do wrong?!
So could someone from the "5e3 and jazz" cult advise me how to adjust this famous amp for my ES-175? Normal or bright channel? Jumping channels together or not?
After a decade of Silverface Princeton and Polytone Mini Brute IV this sounds so ... Tweedish!
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12-04-2015 04:20 PM
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Don't know what speaker would be your preference, but it makes a huge difference in the 5E3 circuit. Maybe something more Jensen-like? That's where I'd start. BTW I believe that Neil has 6L6's in his Tweed Deluxes. Yes, they do break up early and not much headroom on board.
A lot of good info here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN2vqCxaeC0
And here:
http://www.tweeddeluxe.com/
Last edited by stringmaster; 12-04-2015 at 05:36 PM.
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texas heat is odd choice for speaker..takes 150 watts!!..with non vintage correct ferrite mag...odd choice for a 12 watt amp!..but it should be distorting even less..as its not the speaker thats breaking up...try replacing the first pre-amp tube...
look into a low watt alnico speaker
cheers
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I had a "double deluxe" clone for a while. As I recall, great jazz sounds happened using the lowest input on the first channel (not sure I have this terminology right -- 4 inputs, right?)
and then there was some sort of sweet spot with both volumes up around 6 & tone at 4
(sorry, I don't remember the exact details -- something like that)
and guitar volume turned down for clean . . .
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yeah you always have to remember when leo fender and his guys were first tweaking these amp circuits of theirs, they were using guitars on hand to test 'em..ie. strats and tele's!..single coil, relatively low output, alnico mags...humbuckers benefit from being rolled back..if it's the kenny b tone you're after..neil young is a different story..hah..(though they both used p90's too!!)
cheers
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Just my opinion: That Texas heat is the wrong speaker.If you go ceramic, there are much better choices (at least to me).
Such as the 65-watt Celestion Heritage G12-65 that came stock in my Fender EC Tremolux. That sounds quite nice. Or the WGS G12C, very much like an old Jensen C12N that's fuller, warmer. The traditional choice would be alnico, a P12Q I think. Weber 12A125 would be equivalent. I'd go for the 30 watt.
I had the Texas Heat along with a red white and blue in a 2x12 tweed bandmaster. Couldn't get those speakers out of there fast enough. Too efficient, too much bass. Overwhelming.
MD
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here's an interesting relevant thread from the good folks at tdpri-
Speaker in 5E3 clone. C. Rex, Jensen or Weber ? - Telecaster Guitar Forum
if it were my amp, i'd put in a celestion alnico gold..that's my "gold" standard..if you want ceramic mag look at the new-ish celestion creambacks...i know celestion is not thought of as a vintage fendery speaker, but quality is quality..they are still building the goods
and they sound great in any number of applications!
cheers
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I have a 5E3 Deluxe- it's a fantastic jazz amp and matches my teles perfectly. (I have 2 teles- one with a single coli neck pickup and another with a humbucker in the neck.) The V1 tube is a 12AY7 not a 12AX7- this goes a long way towards reducing the gain. Also - WGS speakers go well with this amp. I have a G12Q in the 5E3 deluxe, but a G12C in my Princeton clone. Both speakers sound great, and resemble old Jensen speakers
Also, play with the volume knob of the channel that you are NOT plugged into. Raising the volume to about 5 or 6, or even more, decreases the gain of the channel you ARE plugged into. I have my volume about 3 or 4 on the channel I plug into and about 5 or 6 on the channel I'm not plugged into. The tone is about 3 or 4.
The speaker on these amps seems to play a huge role in how they sound. My friend's 5E3 has a Weber speaker (not sure of which model) but the amp sounds dark and muddy to me and overdrives very quickly.
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I agree with the aforementioned suggestions to try a low-watt handling AlNiCo speaker such as one of the Weber Blue Dogs or real deal Ipswich UK Celestion Blue (or the less spiky less chimey warmer sounding Gold) with the Kurt Mueller 1777 cone, if you are feeling posh. (The UK Tayden A25 is a very good choice and I prefer that because I am a sucker for British Racing Green. I see that you're in Finland, Herb. So, Tayden should be more readily available to you than Weber. Just for shitzz and giggles, Watford Valves :: Sound Factory - Listen to our speakers before you buy! )
The Fender Tweed amp is the closest thing to the Gibson EH-150 octal tube amp. I like that bit of hair on the notes. It is a musical instrument, not so much amplifier per se. You set it where you like the tone and if you need to fill up the space, mike it through the PA.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-04-2015 at 11:25 PM.
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May try the #2 input with the ES-175 as it is several decibels lower than #1, same for both channels. Going the Jensen route or a clone such as a Weber would be helpful. These match that amp well, either alnico or ceramic magnet. I tried a Blue Alnico in a 5E3 once and didn't like it as there was just minimal, hardly any clean head room. They can sound nice, but will probably not stay very clean at a band mix volume level with anything but an extremely light touch drummer. These amps are all about the mid-range.
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Own experience of setting up a 5E3 Deluxe circuit copy to get closest to those Blue Note sounds ... in order of ease and effect ...
12AY7 in V1 this gives you a couple of notches more on the volume control, also reduces the mid focus of the amp .. opening it up the tone a bit. The lower gain valve/tube lets you have more choice in using the high or low input depending on the tonal range of the guitar / pickup you are using
Try a 12AT7 in V2 (phase inverter). The phase inverter design in the Deluxe is where a lot of the early breakup comes from in these amps, the lower gain of a 12AT7 compared to a 12AX7 gives you a couple more notches of clean headroom on the volume control.
Try 6L6's (or KT66's
) instead of 6V6's. Give a little more headroom, though really they do better if you change the bias resistor to give optimal bias for the bigger valve with the B+ the amp is carrying.
The ultimate change to get more headroom is the output transformer. If you put an eg Tweed Bassman spec transformer in a deluxe, you get a lot more headroom, the bottom end is also much tighter, but it's not really a Deluxe any more!
Speakers .. I've tried a lot of different Celestions, Eminence and modern Jensen; all have an impact on the focus and breadth of the amp's tone, for me the Weber 12A125 30 Watt was the closest to the Blue note sound.
Conclusion: you can get a bit more clean head room out of a Deluxe with simple changes. However, if you want a lot more clean headroom, get a different amp. The Tweed Twin reissue is great!
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That could be many things. Hard to know without a detailed description of the circuit and layout.
Originally Posted by Herbie
Maybe you are just playing it too loud. I just use mine in the studio with an archtop. For playing out I use some big powerful amp. I put together a 5e3 circuit from spare parts a while back. I made it a baby bassman and put it in a 4x10 cabinet. I didn't mess with the schematic, though I used a buss-bar and star ground, rather than the grounding plate. Once you alter the schematic it is no longer a 5e3 circuit.
This is an example of the amp.
Last edited by icr; 12-05-2015 at 05:06 PM.
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I played an ES-175 through a 5e3 for about 10 years...with great results. I own three 5e3 amps with different speakers. The one that gets the _best_ results for jazz has the original formula: a Jensen P12Q speaker (although this amp has the Italian reissue). The amp is beautiful. It gets the Kenny Burrell at Blue Note Records sound, all day long.
Here is the deal. You must plug your 175 into input 2 of the channel you intend to use. I recommend the normal channel, too, not the bright channel. Input 2 is the channel that Leo Fender intended to be used with guitars that have hotter signals than, say, single-coil Telecasters or Stratocasters. I automatically think of input 2 as the "Gibson" input.
Secondly, I never play with my guitar volume full on. That's just too hot a signal.
Thirdly, your clone very well may have come with 12ax7 tubes in both the V1 and V2 positions. You will _definitely_ want to go to the original schematic specification: 12ay7 in V1, 12ax7 in V2. Otherwise, your amp is going to be a Neil Young distortion machine.
With these considerations your amp will be a Rudy Van Gelder jazz amp.
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I don't know much about this, so please help me to understand a little about it, w/o derailing the OP's thread here. Without trying to sound stupid, I own a HRD. It say's 'Deluxe' in the name, but when I google up 5E3, I'm not seeing it, so that would tell me it's not of the 5E3 type, but somehow, it seems like it would have that in it's heritage. It's about the same size and shape, 1 12" speaker, but more than 15 watts. More like 40. So, I expect an HRD is not a 5e3. Right? If that is correct, it would make me want to try one of these out.
Thanks, Steve
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The 5e3 is the circuit designation that was used by Fender in the narrow panel tweed deluxes of the late fifties. The hot rod deluxe is a completely different circuit. About the only thing they have in common is that they are both wrapped in tweed and both say Fender on them. Originally Posted by skykomishone
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Jason, Originally Posted by jasonc
Thanks for being succinct. That's a good response that I appreciate. Now, I really do need to test drive one of them. I expect that somewhere along the way that I have, but it's dropped into the memory hole somewhere, so, I'll do a refresh. Thanks Man!
Steve
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I've had a 5e3 for 4/5 years and I still find the controls confusing. It's kind of too loud for the house and too quiet for gigs - unless the pa/sound tech really know what they are doing when they mic me up.
So I pretty much wing it every time I use it - but it always sounds great.
I bought a "crumpletone" 5e3 clone and I bought it used...just to see what the fuss is about. I reckon it's a must have amp. It really can sound spectacular..especially when driven. I reckon it's because it can be cranked/pushed so easily at sensible volume.
I've not experimented with speaker or tubes yet. Mine's got a jenson something or other in it.
:-) it sounds at it's best in my kitchen
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The Hot Rod Deluxe is a good Fender amp, but as was just pointed out, it is a different amp from the Tweed Deluxes of the 1950s. The Deluxe amps came out in the 1940s, after WWII. They were based on the 6V6 power tube (a pair of them). The 6V6 was basically a car radio power tube. In many ways, it is a small version of the venerable 6L6 power tube, but puts out only about 60-percent of the output power of its "big brother."
From 1946-1959, the Deluxe Amp featured two 6V6 power tubes in class-AB configuration (push-pull), cathode biased. There are different ways of biasing a tube so that it will operate. Cathode biasing is one way...and is an older method. It produces a sound that is compressed somewhat. Also, with cathode biasing the tubes will not provide as much output power as "fixed biased" tubes will. So, for example, a Tweed Deluxe amp yields something like 12-watts from a pair of 6V6 tubes while a Blackface Deluxe amp yields more like 20 watts.
The tone stack on a Tweed Deluxe amp is just a "tone" knob--i.e., a treble rolloff control. This is dramatically different than the tone stack on a more modern Fender amp. Tweed Deluxes do sound more midrangey in nature.
The Hot Rod Deluxe is based on a pair of 6L6 tubes, fixed biased. The amp is capable of yielding upwards of 40 watts of output power. It is a little beast. The tone stack is the more modern Fender bass/mid/treble (bmt) stack. This circuit produces the famous "Fender midrange notch" sound when the knobs are all set at the middle of their range (i.e., 5,5,5 on knobs that go to 10, or 6,6,6 on knobs that go to 12). This is a classic Fender amp sound--but more appropriate for pop, rock, country, etc., than for jazz.
You can set a HRD for jazz: use the #2 input in the normal channel; set the tone to bass = 1, mid = 6, treble = 1; set the master volume fairly high; keep the volume low; DO NOT USE ANY GAIN SWITCH; the amp should sound good for jazz. Try a 12ay7 in V1 in the HRD.
The HRD will not sound much like the Tweed Deluxe...they are just different amps--name aside. They are, however, both viable amps.
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Just curious, how many hours do you have on the speaker? I had a new weber that was pretty nasty (and I know it is a good speaker) It had just been reconed and put it into my 5e3 clone. Takes a few hours of pounding to get it broken in (might try this weekend). I have about 25 min on the speaker so far at low volumes. I might try to record it first just to see if I can pick up a before and after vid.
Also +1 on Alnico vs Ceramic speakers. Later fender sf and bf circuits I actually prefer ceramic but on the tweeds I like Alnico better.
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Greentone, exactly my experience...
"You can set a HRD for jazz: use the #2 input in the normal channel; set the tone to bass = 1, mid = 6, treble = 1; set the master volume fairly high; keep the volume low; DO NOT USE ANY GAIN SWITCH; the amp should sound good for jazz. Try a 12ay7 in V1 in the HRD."
The only additional comment is to use a 12AT7 in V3 (phase inverter) instead of the 12ax7.
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Copy that! I've done the tube changes, and, jumped on a deal that Jim Soloway pointed out a while back for a Celestion G12 Century Vintage speaker. It's actually made the HRD so I could use it in the house. I'm going to try this 5E3 route sometime in the future.
Greentone et al, thank you for the bits of enlightenment. I'll be a better player (someday) because of it.
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Oh my, I am overwhelmed for Your tips and encouraging words! Thanks for everyone a lot!
I already tested WGS G12C/S from my SF Princetone and the sound started to be more like something usable. When I changed the V2 too to a 12AT7 (V1 was already 12AY7) I started to like the amp!
I'll get rid of the Texas Heat (anyone interested?) and maybe test an extra Celestion Blue (16ohms, so not exactly convincing) but anyway I am getting used to this peculiar gadget!
It is "a bit" modified said the experienced builder: some of the capacitor values has been changed to get rid of the boominess. And there is a pot for adjusting the negative feedback to get more headroom if needed. (I don't know yet how to use it...)
I am not after historical correctness so I don't mind these mods.
I am feeling there is an interesting adventure beginning!
BTW: Timo, do You happen yo have some Finnish roots? Timo is a common name in this side of the Old Continent.
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Herbie,
The original 5e3 circuit used 0.1mfd coupling caps between V1 and V2 and also between V2 and the power tubes. The 0.1 mfd value is such that it permits the passage of essentially all bass frequency energy to the output transformer--right down to almost DC. So, electronically speaking, the limiting factor as to how much bass is going to be seen by the speaker in the Tweed Deluxe is how flat the output transformer is. With an ultralinear OT the Deluxe would be the world's greatest low power tube bass amplifier--into the right speaker cabinet.
As it is, the amp is capable of really "woofing" up the Jensen P12Q speaker that the amp originally camp with. At low volumes, this is no big deal. The amp makes a spectacular studio amp for recording clean guitar signals. At higher volume levels, it would sometimes be nice if the "tone" control were a bass rolloff, rather than a treble rolloff control. One common mod is to replace the coupling capacitors with 0.022mfd values--probably what is in your amp. Those are blackface Princeton Amp coupling cap values. They reset the high-pass filter cutoff point aspect of the circuit in your amp so that considerably less bass frequency is being passed from the input stage to the phase inverter to the power tubes.
I play stock Deluxes, but I play pretty clean--unless I pickup a Strat/Tele blues gig. I add volume the old fashioned way--add a second Deluxe Amp. They are pretty small and light.
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Hi Steve, If you ever consider ordering one, this is a great guy to deal with. His work is fantastic. Originally Posted by skykomishone
Lots of options too: Lil Dawg (I have no connection other than happy customer)
I have his 5F1 Champster with a vintage 12" Jensen he found for it and it sounds great. Jim's 5E3 sounds even better, and they both love P90s... IMO
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I have 13 amps plugged in next to me. I happen to have an ES-175 and I'm going through a 5e3 circuit. My amplifier/speaker combination has too much bass to get a good sound. Maybe you have the same problem. I just switch guitars or amps...I have other guitars (tele, strat, etc) to play through the 5e3. Otherwise I'd suggest a graphic eq pedal and not muck with the amp.
Tuck & Patti: Normal Guitar, Tuck-like Tone
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