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Mr Wu's translator has offered that Mr Wu's did not know the name M Campellone was a luthier, much less the builder of a design submitted to him in a photograph.
Folks don't want to accept that? Offer proof otherwise, lest you look like an accusatory idiot with no proof
It's likely not the first time someone submitted a photo with a photoshopped name atop the guitar of a known design - if known only to us in the west.
There's no proof of what those suggesting occurred, was known, much less intentional.
You're wanting justice, accountability, for accusations
Accusations aren't fact. Any fool with a keyboard today can make a accusation.
Accuse me - stand in line and take a number
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02-01-2016 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
I've never been to China, and can't speak to the schedule of China's regular roaming electricity and internet blackouts. But they're commonplace.
Surely anyone in America with Internet knows that?
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
"Any fool with a keyboard today can make a accusation."
Do you have proof that he had no idea who M Campellone is? Do you have proof that he doesn't have access to the internet (again, how does he do business??)
And any person with half a brain, some street smarts and a keyboard can see through the BS going on around here.
Do you think that fake Rolex's are made by people who have no idea real ones exist? And I guess Sammy Sosa didn't take performance enhancing drugs because he didn't speak English? Please..
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Originally Posted by 339 in june
the thing that cracks me up is, the guy who ordered the fake Campellone supposedly had a lot money? Then why didn't he just buy a real one?
Then me and my friend 2B wouldn't be having this disagreement..
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Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
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Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
Speaking of non-english speaking populations, hey, I once lived near Jersey too. In the 70's! And if someone made an accusation without facts they better be able to prove it - Or else! Have things changed that much?!
Ms Lora said Mr Wu didn't know. That's good enough for meLast edited by 2bornot2bop; 02-01-2016 at 06:07 PM.
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Forget it, Jake;
It's Chinatown.
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I've been waiting for quite a few years to use that line.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
Instead, you used a Tulip.. Come on 2B.. Being from near New Jersey? You could have used a Cheese Steak or an Eagle or "P".. A Tulip??
This is fun.
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Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
the blue "white" tulip is a practice metaphor, as in a white belt is to a black belt...everyone begins with that first step.
Actually, Jeff offered to get back to me on my attempt at graphic design, and I never heard from him. I didn't pester him, he's a busy guy with a kid.
If only you'd offered the "cheesesteak" suggestion earlier!
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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I think it's clear for all of us that putting someone's name on a work is the not to be crossed line and that it is an outrage.
And kudos to IImV7IM7 for (again, lol) raising an alarm voice.
But i feel really sorry for the Wu team that somehow it could be understood that they counterfeit. Come on ! One guitar ? Out of hundreds ? I know, one guitar is already one too many, but for me it means that Mr Wu's team did not know.
I believe in their sincerity.
Counterfeiters in China are probably on a bigger scale than this nice little workshop in the Beijing countryside.
Heck, me too, until recently i did not know that Campellone was a guitar maker, because i don't have time nor money to dream of high end archtops, life is short and i'd rather play music.
Gibson, Ibanez, Sadowsky, Benedetto, etc ... was perhaps all i knew. Painter, Trenier, Elferink, Parker, etc ... i all heard about it here on this forum.
So how about a Chinese artisan, who obviously is not a jazz guitarist ?
Internet or not, don't forget that our alphabet is a pain in the neck for them. We tend to underestimate the cultural gap.
Were it a major brand like Gibson, etc... written on this ONE conflictual guitar, i would think the Mr Wu was desperately in need of business (just quit Yunzhi in 2014) and it would be obvious he knew. But Campellone ?
Otherwise, yes, the majority of the Wu guitars may be inspired by Benedetto, who probably wanted this, since he released a DVD on how to make archtops.
Anyway, with this sort of thread, i can't help bringing this back to a more zoomed out perspective, geopolitic and history.
China has been well abused by the West in the last centuries ... but we should not debate aoubt that, i think.
Happy Chinese New Year ya all ! Hehehe !
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Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
No offend, but Is that Ok for you search on net in Chinese ?
Lora
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Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
Yours
Lora
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Here I want to be clear that in Mr Wu's workshop, it hasn't internet actually.
I help him get orders and translate for him, then I send the orders to his email and he will go to print shop to print the orders out and he will make the guitars following the details on the order paper. If need color confirm or other details. I have to send message by mobilephone. or calling him.
Now Mr wu have realized that it is wrong and he will not put other brand on his guitars.
Yours
Lora
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Mr. Wu is a fine craftsman and I'm sure a very quick learner. What is important now is to do the right thing in the future. The headstock design of a guitar is very much like the craftsman's signature. You'll notice that all the different Eastman models have the same Eastman mark on the headstock. A simple solution would be for Ms. Lora to post a picture of requested headstock designs on this forum. Lots of knowledgeable and friendly people here will quickly let you and Mr. Wu know if the design is the mark of another craftsman. I will say that I believe that the headstock of Mr. Wu's guitars is the perfect place for Mr. Wu's own name. I appreciate that BigMike requested that feature of the guitar because it honors Mr. Wu as the builder. There are many international buyers who would value an original Mr. Wu guitar every bit as much as one from another maker. Please explain to Mr. Wu and I hope you will consider my suggestion of asking the readers of this forum for help if you are unsure about a design. If you do the right thing, I am confident Mr. Wu will win new and loyal customers for his own creations. Thank you for listening and good luck to you in growing your relationship with your international customers and fellow luthiers.
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I have lived outside the US for the last 25+yrs, most of that time in places where English was not spoken as a first language at all. While some young people around the world speak English, the 'prevalence' is in knowing the letters and how to reach them on the keyboard, OR, in identifying western names which pique their interest/hobbies. Gibson is not spelled "Gibson" in Japan or China. In Japanese it is ギッブソン. The vast majority of the artisan/craftsman class making stuff, however, don't necessarily have the internet 'skills' in English that we users of this forum do.
And web 'usage' in China, while massively prevalent, is different than web usage in the west. The vast majority of it is mobile messaging and email. In terms of hours spent, there is a lot of online usage for gaming, and shopping online for specific stuff. However, there is so much 'information' written in Chinese which is false, there is enormous skepticism (in China) in the 'truth' of anything one tries to 'research' in Chinese (without a fair bit of knowledge of how to cut through the bullhookie).
And just like most of you don't know how to try and dig up information online in Chinese, Mr Wu wouldn't necessarily know how to do the research in English. I'd be somewhat surprised if, even given the logo of M Campellone as it was, that he could separate the letters reliably so that he could search in English. Or if he had heard the name Campellone which had been put into characters for him somehow, that he would make the link between the letters in that logo and the name he had once heard (though I'd personally bet he hadn't heard the name before). And all of this presumes that he is an internet user. I think there are lots and lots of craftsmen Mr Wu's age making furniture or whatnot who would put a logo meaningful to the customer if asked and wouldn't go to the internet to research simply because it wouldn't occur to them to do so.
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Originally Posted by yolandateam
thank you for clarifying that. I understood that from what others are saying here on JGF.
Yes it is ok for me to search on net in Chinese. But I don't need to. because I am not building exact copies of famous guitars that are accurate down to the name on the headstock and selling them.
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Originally Posted by aboutIt
Yours
Lora
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@Joe D.
"Yes it is ok for me to search on net in Chinese."
I think what Lora mean't is could you do a search in Chinese on the internet with you knowledge of Chinese?
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Originally Posted by xuoham
So, if Mr. Wu in the future is going to avoid these situations by not fullfilling similar orders, I have to bow my head to him. Don't see the need for that unless he expects his customers to be a bunch of criminal a**wipes (when I am going to watch the tv news tonight and see my fellow human beings doing what they are doing, I will wonder if that expectation wouldn't be correct).
Robert
ps: crime might be a dangerous word here, I am thinking about moral aspects, natural law.Last edited by diminix; 02-02-2016 at 09:20 AM. Reason: typo
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Another thing that could be useful is to provide Lora and Mr Wu with an exhaustive list of all the archtop makers.
Simple, no ?
That one is not exhaustive but it's a good start.
Also, iim7V7IM7 started a thread in that vein. Especially this. Please take a look Lora !
Mr Wu company is probably too small to have an international lawyer, but maybe a good list is all they need to avoid that "Campellone Affair".
ps: oh ! those prices ! ouch ! Still probably cheaper that a good cello though, lol.
courtesy of iim7V7IM7 from the above mentioned thread:
Anderson = $5,600 - $18,000
Unger = $4,400 - $16,000
Benedetto = $9,000 - $30,000
Buscarino = $9,000 - $24,000
Campellone = $4,450 - $12,500
Comins = $8,500 - $12,500
Grimes = $6,200 - $22,000
Lacey = $10,000 - $20,000
Mapson = $5,550-$18,500
Marchione = ?
Megas = $6,075 - $9.300
Moll = $5,500 - $15,000
Monteleone = ? (likely expensive)
Mortoro = $5,300 - $18,000
Nickerson = $5,000 - $8,000
Ribbecke = $25,000
Schaefer = $7,260-$10,230
Triggs = ? (I suspect more affordable)
Walker = ? (not taking orders currently)
Zimnicki = ?Last edited by xuoham; 02-02-2016 at 09:55 AM. Reason: addendum
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Originally Posted by edh
Yeah, I know what she meant.
This whole ordeal taught me a lot about why it is not prudent to speak your mind around here.
Lora, if it was a mistake, I apologize. Good luck to you.
To the Forum and its Moderators, I apologize for any tension I might have caused.
BigMike, I'm sorry for hijacking your thread.
This has already taken way too much of my time away from me doing what I need to do. Come to think of it, I am defending a gentleman who has no idea who I am and will likely tell me to shut up and leave it alone. So from here on in, that's what I will do.
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I did hear back from Mark Campellone.
Here (with his permission) is what he wrote to me:
>>>>Hi Mark,
A number of folks (some, I assume, who are Forum members) have contacted me about this - I appreciate your contacting me directly.
A few weeks ago it was brought to my attention that a Chinese builder was commissioned to make a copy of my Special Series model, and that there was a discussion of it on the Jazz Guitar Forum - I checked the Forum and learned that the peghead of the Special copy would bear the Chinese builder's logo. I was not overly concerned.
Just yesterday I learned that the same builder had also made a copy bearing my logo on the peghead, and this, I thought, was going a little too far - I'd like to think that my name, at least, is my own property.
I am pleased to know that response from Jazz Guitar Forum members has ultimately brought this issue to the attention of the builder, and that he plans to refrain from incorporating the branding of other builders into his work.
Thanks again for your consideration in contacting me.<<<<<<
So for those who wondered what Mark Campellone would make of this, there you have it.
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What a moderate and kind response !
Good job, Mark !
McCoy Tyner style asymetrical pentatonic sequence...
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