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I have an L-5 1934 historic reissue arriving this week and was thinking of maybe doing solo jazz guitar gigs with it and thought that using a condenser mic might work.
While researching I found clip on gooseneck condensers that are designed for horns but wondered if it would work for archtops since they have a pickguard to clip on to and can point the mic at the treble side f hole or at the 12th fret. But after more research I found a forum post on the acoustic guitar forum about Julian lage doing a similar thing but had it clipped to the tail piece which is much better as it would not get in the way like it would on the pickguard.
Anybody else tried a similar approach? which mic did you use?
Here is a pic from the AGF post.
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08-16-2015 08:54 PM
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Lots of coverage of this on Campus 5's swing blog. Do yourself a favor and spend a couple of hours there. I suspect he'll probably stop by this thread and give you the short version, but that should not stop you from taking in the whole blog.
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Check out AMT mikes and the DPA4099. A cheap solution is a lavalier clipped to the pickguard.
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I have a DPA 4099. It sounds fantastic and feedback is within reason (but still easy to run into). I did have trouble placing it correctly though. I basically got nothing when placed over the 12th fret as recommended. Over the lower f-hole (as apparently Julian Lage does it) it sounded good but I did not have a good way of attaching the mic. I am still looking for a good solution - would be grateful for pointers and tips.
I found the sound together with my Heritage golden eagle quite pleasing, way better than a piezo and much more acoustic sounding than the magnetic pickup. For louder applications one probably will still need to mix the signal of the mic with a piezo or magnetic pickup signal.
Should note in passing that I liked the dpa much better than a Schertler contact mic. The dpa sounds more natural and has less feedback.
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08-17-2015, 03:34 AM #5destinytot Guest
I've been using one of these since reading Campus 5's great blog post AKG C 519 M Miniature Condenser Clip-On Microphone.
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Final Edge Mic String anyone? Looks like it would be easy to clamp to the f-hole.
Finhol Edge Mic String
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I'm a big fan of the clip-on lavalier mic for acoustic archtops. Here's my set up:
Audio Technica AT831b mic
Audio Technica AT8418 Gooseneck (sold separately)
Rolls MS111 Mic Switch (latching on/off)
If I'm going direct into the board, and there are extra channels, I'll also add a Radial ABo line switcher, and then set the board/monitors for a lead level on one channel and a rhythm level on the other. It's so helpful, because when you only have an 8 bar solo in the middle of something, the sound guy can almost never react fast enough.
If I'm plugging into a speaker on stage, using a powered PA speaker as an "amp", then I'll go into an ART Mic pre so I have a volume knob within reach, and then into a Mackie SRM350 powered speaker. I've just picked up a Mackie 402-VLZ3 mixer, which could go in place of the mic pre, and allow me to do the channel switching thing.
I'm pretty consistently amazed with the quality of sound I get out of the AT831b and this basic system. I've used it with my own archtops, and on the road with stuff as nice as a Triggs NY'er or a late '40's L-7, or even a simple Loar LH-600, and it's always been way better than any alternative I've tried or seen. (As an aside, I friend put a K&K in his Loar, and when I was stilling using a mic on a stand, I was impressed with the power and relative feedback resistance at decently high volumes, plus it didn't sound terrible. However, I sat in with him last night, and now that I'm used to hearing what the lav mic combo can deliver, the K&K didn't sound nearly as good.)
When using a monitor, the best placement has been to my left, basically on-axis with the guitar neck. When using the powered speaker as an "amp", I've found putting it behind my to me left the best. Basically, either way, my body is acting as a gobo, blocking the bass frequencies from resonating the guitar body too much.
I point the mic down at the top just behind the bridge, between the bridge and the lower f-hole. I consciously avoid the f-holes because it only really gives you bass. You have to dial it in, but there's a nice sweet spot where the proximity effect gives you fullness, but there's still "air" to the sound. I'm usually 1/2" to 1" off the top. The gooseneck can be a little annoying if it gets droopy, as they sometimes do. Don't be afraid to take it off the guitar, bend it around a bit, and then bend it back to what you need. Sometimes the friction joints get loose, it won't hold an exact spot as well.
Here's my rig from a sideman gig the other day. The Mackie SRM350 is just out of view, just to the right of the bass drum, and about that far back.
By comparison, I had a K&K pickup installed in my National Style 1 Tricone, and no matter I did, it just sounded terrible. The "resonator expert" at very good acoustic music store highly recommended the K&K over the Highlander, and I'm guessing I should have just gone with the highlander. But, after a bit of experimentation, I was able to get a great sound using the same AT831b aimed at the cones (never the sound holes). Finding a place to clamp it on that would stay out of the way of my picking hand took some doing. So, I bought another AT831b on ebay, and another gooseneck, that way I can have one on each guitar. I sold the preamp I bought to use with the K&K, and I'm guessing, I'll probably never plug the thing in again.
Lastly, another guy I know bought a DPA4099, and was using the guitar gooseneck that it comes with. He had a hard time with the gooseneck being droopy, and it kept sagging through out the gig. I'd love to experiment with the DPA, but I've been able to pickup the AT's used for pretty cheap, and so I haven't been able to rationalize dropping $500 for an upgrade. My friend Tak, from the Sweet Hollywiians from Japan, uses a a DPA into a Joe Meek mic-pre with 3 channel eq into an AER on stage, and sending a line to the house from either the mic-pre or the AER. His was the best acoustic archtop sound I've ever heard from the audience. So, that should say something. Of course, I can't remember what he used to mount it, but I don't think it was the DPA guitar mount.Last edited by campusfive; 08-17-2015 at 11:19 AM.
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Looking at a couple picks on facebook, it looks like Tak is using the Cello-mount attached to the tailpiece, and then pointing the mic more or less where I was suggesting. From this pick, he's a bit further off the top than I am.
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I'd like to bump up this thread because I just discovered this: Bartlett Guitar Mic - Bartlett Audio .
For 7-string use, consider the Cello Mic: Bartlett Cello Mic - Bartlett Audio
Bruce Bartlett sells spare Sound-hole Clips which are not reflected on the website. Just send him an email.
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On a related note, does anyone make one of these things with a little volume knob on it?
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Originally Posted by Woody Sound
http://www.schattendesign.com/SJA_Jacks.htm
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
DPA's are great and last I checked they can handle the highest SPL so don't break up as easy as less expensive lavaliers. Also want to check the mic pattern many are super cardiod, I would go with just cardiod and omni tends to feedback easier.
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Originally Posted by Woody Sound
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Re: volume knob. Unfortunately both of those are designed to plug into end-pin jacks, not to plug a clip-on mic into.
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I was 1st introduced to DPA mics when I was recording orchestral concerts; they were then made by B&K, who were famous for their instrumentation microphones. I realize that generalizations are not very accurate, but I think that DPAs are about the finest mics available. I don't have any direct experience with the 4090(?) line of instrument mics, but I do own several of their other models. I'd take a serious look at anything made by DPA...
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Originally Posted by steves3972
Last edited by JazzNote; 06-23-2016 at 11:40 AM.
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I'm thinking that a DPA 4099 could be attached to the strings (behind the bridge) with this clip - Clamp Mount for d:vote? 4099 Instrument Microphones
and be pretty much out of the way and allow for some experimenting w/placement. I don't know the exact measurements of the clip; I plan to contact DPA for that info.
On the subject of using a lavalier mic on an archtop - it's a viable idea for recording, but would probably present some feedback problems in a live/sound reinforcement setting. Lavs are omni directional mics, as opposed to the 4099, which has a supercardioid polar pattern, making it far less prone to feedback. Here's a photo of a DPA lav mounted on a Campellone archtop using a rubber DPA cello mount.Last edited by mercosound; 06-23-2016 at 07:05 AM. Reason: need to addinfo
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d:vote? 4099U Universal Instrument Microphone
It could go around the strings behind the bridge (damping them too in the bargain) or go around the tailpiece.
As for the rubber clamps, there are 3 sizes: violin, cello, bass.
You could also jury-rig a yellow 3M sponge or foam rubber sponge, cut it up into pieces, run the gooseneck of the DPA 4900 through and wedge pieces of the 3M sponge between the strings to hold them. Guess we are only limited by our ingenuity.
The only thing going against the DPA 4099 is the price: $600. The Bartlett Mic is $200.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 06-23-2016 at 11:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by mercosound
I almost never have trouble using it, as long as my monitor is to my left, and pointed in-line with the neck. I have the gooseneck pointed down toward the top with about 1" of clearance.
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Here's the gooseneck with the cello mount: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/DPA/me...L.jpg?ext=.jpg
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That looks like the way to go...
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Bump - so I did pick up a DPA4099, and the cello mount/gooseneck combo is by far a better choice than the Audio Technica clip on gooseneck. I say that because, although I had no trouble clipping the AT to my Eastman and my 1932 Epiphone Deluxe, the lower tailpiece angle on my '35 L-12 and '32 L-5 made it far less stable - I actually put a couple small scratches in the top from the AT gooseneck, which was heart stopping.
Also, the quality of sound is a huge step up. It's impressive to hear my guitar back in the monitors sounding that good. Paired with something like an AER Compact 60, which provides phantom power, it's the best acoustic archtop amplified rig I've heard. Into a PA system with monitors, it's even better.
Still, for $600+, the DPA is a LOT more expensive than the AT combo I'd been using, and whether it is "worth it" in the end is up for debate. In the context of an ensemble you may not be able to hear the nuances that make the DPA sound better, and for the money, it may not be worth it. Still, the upgrade in mounting and sound is pretty great. (Thankfully, I found it used for $450, so I didn't have to pay full price).
By the way, just for the sake of argument, here's a new clip of the AT from last year, showing just how totally workable the sound is in context. Unlike previous clips, this time they recorded everything multitrack and mixed it down later, rather than taking a feed of the FOH mix off the board. I'm pretty friggin' proud of this particular performance, so I hope you enjoy it.
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Old thread.
I just got a really good buy on a new AT831b. Anyone know if this gooseneck will work with/ fit it?
Amazon.com: Audio Technica Unimount Microphone Instrument Mount: Musical Instruments
AT8418
They mention several mic models, but not the AT831b.
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Yes, that's the one. Works great.
Moffa Mithra
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