Question to Eastman owners about the clear coat

[Nabil B]

Do you find that the finish on your Eastman guitar is particularly fragile ? I know Eastman uses nitrocellulose and sprays it thin, but my 580CE gets dings and scratches so easily it's ridiculous. For example, my son accidentally dropped a piece of Lego on the top, and it left a scratch. Are they all like that ?

[DanielleOM]

Yes,


I would avoid using polish. I find when the finish is broken, polish can easily wick under the finish and lift it. I love my Eastman guitars and have come to accept this. At least they do not look like they were dipped in a vat of molten plastic.

For some reason I don't have not had any problems with my E10-OM guitar, but may be have been lucky enough not to ding it yet.

Wish they made more blonde archtops where the dings are not so visible.

I do not know why they are like this. I have an SCGC OM flat top with a nitro cellulose finish and that finish does seem to stand up a lot better.


Danielle

[TH]

One of the least protective finishes I've ever encountered. And they can chip off in patches too. On mine, the "bald spot" on the top of the headstock is steadily making its way down the neck. Without much encouragement from me, I'll note.
David

[monkmiles]

Yea, this is an Eastman thing. The plus side is it allows the wood to resonate more for what is in my opinion a nicer hollow body tone than those manufacturers who apply thick finish (Ibanez for example). I used an ibanez ak105 for years whose tone was significantly duller and less hollow sounding when played side by side with my Eastman ar403 for example.

But yes it will easily scratch. My ar403 has a minor scratch I got on a gig recently. At first I was upset, since then I've realized if you get good use out of something, it's bound to get/show wear in time and I've played it tons over the last few years.

For cleaning/polishing I use Gibson pump polish which seems to be safe for nitro.

[DanielleOM]

On my AR805CE, I made this mistake of being liberal with polish and the stuff wicked under the tuning peg, and lifted the finish around the peg.

That one is really marked up primarily from contact with microphones.


Danielle

[goldenwave77]

On my AR805CE, I made this mistake of being liberal with polish and the stuff wicked under the tuning peg, and lifted the finish around the peg.




Danielle

People should really read a book called Understanding Wood Finishing by Bob Flexner, 1999, Rodale Press and American Woodworking Magazine. It discusses why wood is finished in the first place--basically to render it less susceptible to moisture infiltration--making it less likely to expand/contract; to make it look nice; and to protect it from dirt and oils. You can probably find a 2nd hand copy for not much money. About 300 pg. with good color photos of different woods (raw and finished).

It also discusses with a good (scientific) chemical explanation---the differences between different types of finishes, lacquer--nitro and the natural stuff discovered by the Chinese thousands of years ago, shellac, varnish, oil finishes and others, and also discusses the difference between coloring agents---paint v. pigmented dyes, versus aniline dyes, French polish, and how sealer coats, finish coats, and color coats work, and also how different wood grains (oak;maple; cherry; mahogany, etc.) react to different finishes, and what is likely to work. Basically, within each category there is a large variety of essentially similar products, with different mfg.'s all trying to "differentiate" their products by making ridiculous claims for frequently very similar products. He also discusses different finish application techniques (spray guns v. hand wiped, or polished, etc.).

Most of what is sold as "polish" is worthless: It smells nice, for a short time, gives almost no protection, and volatilizes off after a short while. There is a huge market in "snake oil" finishes sold at antiques auctions, craft shows, etc. About the only "polish" that gives decent protection is hard paste wax, but putting this on any musical instrument is extremely dubious. An amount enough to do anything is likely to affect the instrument's performance.

Wood is dead. It does not need to be "fed". It does react to humidity/moisture concerns. If there are unfinished surfaces, the underside of a soundboard, the interior of a guitar, etc. they will react differentially to moisture infiltration/exfiltration (drying out). So, moisture levels are a concern to prevent cracks, etc.

I think people get a little over-excited about stuff that is essentially meaningless when it comes to musical instruments. For e.g., I have a Heritage 445 which is a "bluegrass cannon"--a dreadnaught which is scary loud. I bought it (at a steep discount) because someone dropped something and left a slight dent in the soundboard, and the nitro finish is "scarred". Does this affect sound---no....does this affect playability---yeah---I now get to play it because it cost me almost nothing to buy it. Could this be fixed? Probably, sand off the nitro---apply a hot compress and the surface indentation would probably absorb, respond and return to its original appearance. Then new nitro could be applied, and nitro is a lot easier to touch up than a hard poly (candy shell) kind of finish. Will I bother doing this? No, unless woodfinishing becomes my next new passion.

Secondly, I have a Benedetto type archtop that I replaced the tailpiece on, after breaking several of the ebony, trapeze type. IMO, that design, carried over from violins is a poor choice for a guitar. The new tailpiece required drilling new holes to seat it, and left exposed a tiny hole (maybe 1/8th diameter). Does this affect playability? No....does this affect sound? Oh yes, the guitar is much more "airy" now (warning, this is a joke, and the new tailpiece had NO effect on the acoustic sound--if anything its a bit louder with similar tone).

The appearance of a guitar is one thing---what is sounds and plays like is quite another. I had a beautiful looking Orville 335 which sounded dead---like you were playing with muffled blankets. My 339 has couple of small dings in it but it is twice the guitar. My hobbyist-built Benedetto type 17" spruce carvie has an endhole in it---but sounds really good. My L4-CES is the red one---which seems to sell at a discount, but it sounds great, and honestly if I never have another sunburst finish gtr. I won't cry.

[Nabil B]

Thanks for the replies, now I know that my guitar is not defective. But it still bugs me... I don't mind some battle scars, but knowing that even the smallest, most mundane accidents can damage the finish (and the wood beneath it !) is really annoying.

Personally, I don't use polish. I clean my guitar with a micro fiber cloth, and I use a little water to remove some of the dirt (wiped right away so it doesn't leave any residue).

Also, I don't believe the thin nitro does anything for the tone. I'm sure a thin coat of poly would make no difference tone wise. I'm actually thinking about asking a luthier to strip down the nitro all over the guitar to replace it with a thin coat of poly, but this would be an expensive operation... Eastman should really do something about this.

[DRS]

Yes
I barely touched the music stand and I have a little white chip on my red Eastman. I love the other features of the guitar.

[RClegg]

I have an Eastman flat top, and yes it gets dings very easily. I never leave the guitar out if I am not playing it, and I watch it more when I am playing on the porch or what have you. The wood isn't damaged, just little dings in the finish. I have not noticed any of them spreading. I love it though, sounds great, plays great. I don't own many things of any type that don't have some dings!

Russ

[BigMikeinNJ]

My understanding is they do a French Polish to seal and stain it, then shoot it with two very thin coats of lacquer and then after it has dried they buff almost the lacquer off. Yes the finish is delicate, and yes the guitars are remarkably responsive. So you have to baby them a little more than say an Ibanez which you could likely chop wood with and not mar the finish.

[Archie]

Thanks for the replies, now I know that my guitar is not defective. But it still bugs me... I don't mind some battle scars, but knowing that even the smallest, most mundane accidents can damage the finish (and the wood beneath it !) is really annoying.

Personally, I don't use polish. I clean my guitar with a micro fiber cloth, and I use a little water to remove some of the dirt (wiped right away so it doesn't leave any residue).

Also, I don't believe the thin nitro does anything for the tone. I'm sure a thin coat of poly would make no difference tone wise. I'm actually thinking about asking a luthier to strip down the nitro all over the guitar to replace it with a thin coat of poly, but this would be an expensive operation... Eastman should really do something about this.

Your last comment is the most important imo.

You're right, there is almost or absolutely no noticeable difference in thin Nitro or Thin poly. Play a new Hofner and I guarantee you it will be more resonant an acoustic than any Eastmen, well certainly one I've never played.

Here's a 16"Bout Honfer New President.

[mr. beaumont]

No way in heck Eastman's doing a french polish.

[Klatu]

Your last comment is the most important imo.

You're right, there is almost or absolutely no noticeable difference in thin Nitro or Thin poly. Play a new Hofner and I guarantee you it will be more resonant an acoustic than any Eastmen, well certainly one I've never played.

Here's a 16"Bout Honfer New President.

I disagree strongly with this post. In fact, I may be a unique position to comment on this question as I own 2 Hofners, one finished in poly and the other french polished. The difference in tone quality is profound. Some of the variation presents itself in volume, where the french polished instrument clearly excels in that department, but the quality of the tone is legitimately affected. The french polished guitar has a far drier sound which shares some characteristics with Maccaferri style gypsy guitars. both acoustic and amplified than does the poly. I'd like to add that of the two, I'd hold onto the poly coated instrument because I prefer its electric tone even though its acoustic tone pales in comparison.

Now as to the comparison with Eastman acoustic archtops, I would again like to say that my experiences differ from yours. I currently own 2 Eastman guitars that I would compare favorably to the french polished Hofner. My Eastman 810 and 880 John Pisano both produce extraordinary acoustic tones that I would feel comfortable playing alongside my Hofners or Heritages.

I'd like to add that there is a reason why I hold on to each guitar, and that is that I feel there is a place for each of them. Some, like the Hofners excel when projecting biting tones, while others like the Eastmans feel more at home playing smooth and intimate chord melodies.

[Archie]

I disagree strongly with this post. In fact, I may be a unique position to comment on this question as I own 2 Hofners, one finished in poly and the other french polished. The difference in tone quality is profound. Some of the variation presents itself in volume, where the french polished instrument clearly excels in that department, but the quality of the tone is legitimately affected. The french polished guitar has a far drier sound which shares some characteristics with Maccaferri style gypsy guitars. both acoustic and amplified than does the poly. I'd like to add that of the two, I'd hold onto the poly coated instrument because I prefer its electric tone even though its acoustic tone pales in comparison.

Now as to the comparison with Eastman acoustic archtops, I would again like to say that my experiences differ from yours. I currently own 2 Eastman guitars that I would compare favorably to the french polished Hofner. My Eastman 810 and 880 John Pisano both produce extraordinary acoustic tones that I would feel comfortable playing alongside my Hofners or Heritages.

I'd like to add that there is a reason why I hold on to each guitar, and that is that I feel there is a place for each of them. Some, like the Hofners excel when projecting biting tones, while others like the Eastmans feel more at home playing smooth and intimate chord melodies.

I agree with you, I don't think the Eastmens are french polished.

My point is that take all the variables in to account and we are talking Nitro V:S Poly and my feeling is, that poly put on nice and thin compared to Nitro is negligible.

if you're talking a polish thats rubbed then yes you are right about the dry sound. I agree with you. We also have to discern what nitre. If its the very brittle type thats seen these days (look at all the year old gibbons with massive cracks to the body/top etc), then isn't a softer poly applied just a thin better?

Or am I going too far?

[Klatu]

I hear the difference between poly and nitro and prefer nitro, but that doesn't mean that a poly finish is a deal breaker. I like the sound of poly finished guitars as well, it's just a matter of cardinal preferences.

[Longways to Go]

my ar371 hasn't been any worse than my Gibsons regarding delicacy of finish.

I think laquer sounds better than polyurethane. My theory runs along the lines of organic vs plastic or maybe the finish soaks into the wood vs sits on top . . . I know it's not scientific or anything . . .

I'm sure an expert will soon tell me the errors in my ways

[Archie]

I hear the difference between poly and nitro and prefer nitro, but that doesn't mean that a poly finish is a deal breaker. I like the sound of poly finished guitars as well, it's just a matter of cardinal preferences.

On the majority I agree but I haven't had the chance to test two guitars exactly the same, one shot with poly and one shot with Nitro. Until I do I'm not gonna say. Also with Nitro becoming more brittle as the formula is changed I'm inclined to agree less with your assertion.

Would be nice to her some real tests.

[DanielleOM]

Looking beyond the finish, I was wondering how you like that guitar. I think you would be hard pressed to find another guitar with the same dimensions, specs, for a similar price. If there is something out there, I would be very curious to know what it is. I think you would have to go to a custom builder to find another 16" archtop, 25" scale length, with a carved top.

FYI, When I found my AR805CE, there was ding in the back of the neck. I think it had fallen on one of the case latches. The luthier said it was very easy to repair that nitro cellulose finish on that one built in 2005. That repair has held up and I can no longer determine where the repair was done.

I have an archback from the same era and I question if the finish is the same. If really bang that one the finish will turn white at the point of impact. (Sunburst guitar) I also managed to put a nasty scratch on the lower bout that was clearly my fault. For some reason this luthier (not the same luthier) had more difficulty than the first one. This luthier suspected they were using some kind of curing catalyst in the finish.

I think you will find most luthiers would rather touch up a nitro cellulose finish than any of the modern poly finishes. From what I have heard it's very difficult or impossible to repair a modern poly finish if they need a touch up.

Danielle

[Para]

I have an Ibanez AF200 and the poly finish is extremely thin, the acoustic volume is far louder than the ES175 I have with nitro finish, the nitro on the ES175 is starting to wear thin in places and craze in others but quite frankly I don't really care that much as my guitars are for playing not looking at. I also have a custom shop strat with nitro finish that has dings, dent, scratches and crazing on the nitro but still sounds the same.

[goldenwave77]

my ar371 hasn't been any worse than my Gibsons regarding delicacy of finish.

I think laquer sounds better than polyurethane. My theory runs along the lines of organic vs plastic or maybe the finish soaks into the wood vs sits on top . . . I know it's not scientific or anything . . .

I'm sure an expert will soon tell me the errors in my ways

I'm not an expert, but Bob Flexner is:

"When lacquer became available in the 1920's, it was widely believed to be the ultimate finish. It had all the superior application and repair qualities of shellac, but it was more resistant to water, heat, alcohol, acids and alkalis. In addition, it was a synthetic, so supply didn't depend on exotic natural materials, and it was easily manufactured....

Nitrocellulose lacquer became a viable finish after WW I. Large stockpiles of cotton for making gun cotton, used in making smokeless gun powder, remained after the war. Chemists discovered they could turn this cotton into a very fast drying finish. The automobile industry had been using varnish, which required a long wit between coats. The furniture industry also the advantage...Lacquer quickly became the standard finish for furniture...

Lacquer is a complex finishing material. Only a part of the finish is actually nitrocellulose....By itself, though, nitrocellulose has poor build and flexibility. So the resin is added to improve these characteristics, and oily chemicals called plasticizers are added to further improve flexibility. Manufacturers very the amounts and type ....generally the more elastic, colorless, and resistant the lacquer, the more it costs."

I think DuPont hooked up with the car industry, and most people think this saved DuPont as a company. So "better living through chemistry" as their slogan goes.

Nitro is a manufactured product. SHELLAC, is a natural product...derived from insect secretions deposited on tree branches. Again, Flexner "The word 'lac' means "one hundred thousand," referring to the number of insects found on a single branch. Approx. 1.5 million bugs must be harvested to make 1 lb. of shellac.) The resin is scraped form the twigs and branches...then melted, strained ...and formed into thin sheets that are broken up into flakes and shipped around the world."

Musical instrument lacquer is a special flexible grade product.

Personally, I think a thin poly finish is not all that different....My rule of thumb---if I can see the wood grain through the poly, it's probably fine. I do think thick, "candy shell" poly coatings sound "deader".

[Klatu]

Lots of really knowledgable folks in this forum. Which particular poly finished instruments sound as good as their nitro counterparts in your opinion?

[Archie]

Lots of really knowledgable folks in this forum. Which particular poly finished instruments sound as good as their nitro counterparts in your opinion?

Well I would cite the Hofner Jazzica and New President as examples of good poly on stunningly acoustic sounding guitars.

Im pretty damn sure my Ibanez FA-800 would have been poly and that was again lauded on here for its tone. Some called the hight of tone.

I have also seen many poly finishes were the finish has sunken in to the wood and you get the corrugated look, I'm not sure though wether that has more to do with the piece of wood itself or the thinness of the finish, probably both.

Heres an example on my Ibanez AF-120 a cheap korean Ibanez (well they were $1000 new in 1999 so maybe not so cheap).

[Klatu]

I wouldn't classify poly Hofners as acceptable fully acoustic instruments. Of course, that's just my opinion, but i value my poly Hofner for the acoustic elements that seep into its electric tone.

[ESCC]

FYI on polishing an Eastman - I own an Eastman 910 and have had excellent results using MusicNomad Pro Strength guitar polish. It has removed some marks that I thought were permanent and over a 2 year period I have never noticed any problems as a result of using it.

this pro-strength, silicone-free analeptic will restore and revive the dull, hazy, and scuffed surfaces on your guitars, revealing the brilliant shine that's hidden underneath. This remarkable youth tonic is safe for all guitar finishes, whether nitrocellulose, polyurethane, satin, or gloss. MusicNomad Guitar Polish even removes oxidation and restores a brilliant shine to your guitar hardware!

[Hammertone]

IMO, the thickness of the finish has a lot to do with the acoustic properties of the instrument.
My understanding is that Hofner offered the Jazzica, New President and Vice President as instruments designed to be amplified, with some balance of electric and acoustic sound. I have found considerable variation in that balance among the various Jazzicas, New Presidents, Vice Presidents and Thin Presidents that I have handled between 1999 and 2010.