-
Super fun news / stuff to look forward to....
I spent yesterday afternoon hanging out with Steve and doing some R&D work on the VA-185G.
I recently replaced the original Tone Tubby speaker in my personal VA-185G with an Eminence 'Lil Texas to great effect.
Steve told me they had recently changed over from Tone Tubby to Weber speaker, so we evaluated that speaker as well.
Lastly, Steve had a couple modifications he was experimenting with, and so we compared that updated circuit to the original.
I also brought my 1939 EH-185 along as a control.
We both agreed the testing showed that the original circuit and the Lil Texas speaker were our favorite sounding, and the most like the original EH-185. The original Tone Tubby speaker acted like resistor (not electrically, but figuratively), holding the amp back, plus contributing a bit of grind of its own - now, for many of Vintage 47's blues playing clientele, getting grind and saturation at manageable volume levels and without icepick treble is important. But, for somebody like me clean headroom but with that octal tube warmth and tone profile is more useful. Changing the speaker not only opened up the response of the amp, and significantly increasing the volume, it removed the upper end grind coming from the speaker, and improved clarity. The new Weber sounded good, but it still contributed a lot grind and upper end fuzz, which made it sound a bit too gain-y to me.
So, it looks like the Lil Texas speaker will be an option on the amp soon, if not the default speaker. Of course, many of the folks who pick up a Vintage 47 are looking for that gain, and will choose the Weber.
Now the VA-185G is not an exact replica of a EH-185, but with the change it's gotten super close. One of the main differences is that the EH-185 is a closed back cab when you leave the chassis in place, and that adds bass, punch and more directional projection. The VA-185 is a semi open back. That said, even with a large opening on it, the pack panel had a huge effect on the sound. So, moving forward, we're gonna meet up again soon and experiment with a more fully closed back.
In the other direction, there's a possibility they might offer a smaller cab that looks like an EH-150 (in the picture to the left). I asked for a custom cab for a project amp I was building myself (basically a Quilter 101 + a Lil Texas in a V47 cab) for situations where I need to be really loud and can't be mic'd. The funny thing is that I threw that speaker in the VA-185G before the new cab was ready, and the amp is so much louder that I may not even follow through with the project. But Steve mentioned he could easily put a VA-185G chassis in the new cab, so that raises the possibility of making the VA-185G amp more closed back, and then also offering, say, an VA-150G as a new model with the open back like an EH-150.
Lastly, their amps are really built like the original field coil using Valco and Gibson circuits they're based on, and then the extra electronics are added to substitute in the permanent magnet speaker. So, they can be pretty easily be rewired to use a vintage field coil. So, we're also going to experiment with an old 12" Rola I got off ebay a while back.
Anyway, stay tuned for more developments....
-
03-29-2018 04:21 PM
-
Jonathan,
thats interesting I had Steve send me an empty VA 185 cab and I put a Quilter 101 reverb and an Eminence Delta light in it. It sounds great and I use that amp all the time now.
all the best
Tim
-
Thank you Jonathan for your very informative post. I also have a VA185G and have come to have similar thoughts about it. So now I will try a new speaker in it. The Lil Texas seems like a really good choice. But, may I ask, why that speaker in particular?
-
I didn't do any research myself. A friend, who's also a VA-185G owner recommended it. And then he installed it in his, and after a week, he was singing it's praises.
As I recall, a vintage steel playing mutual friend of ours had done the research on what high efficiency speaker would have the right characteristics. And then that guy built a Quilter 101 / Lil Texas combo in a TV front cab. It worked wonderfully, but that guy wanted to use a different cab, and so he sold it to my friend. My friend used that a bunch, and that inspired me to try to build one as well.
Then he swapped the Lil Texas in the VA-185G, and he hasn't used the Quilter/TV front combo since. On his recommendation I threw the Lil Texas in my VA-185G and may never the need the Quilter 101 / Lil Texas / Vintage 47 cabinet amp I was going to make. I did order a second Lil Texas and will install it and give the quilter a try. But, so far, the VA-185G has done amazingly.
The Lil Texas really keeps the amp from fizzing out, both from top end grind or from the low end getting farty. It's clearer, fuller and the bottom end stays together better, but it's still got that perfect Charlie Christian fat mid range warmth, boardering on grind, especially on the double stops. And it's doing that a volumes that now fill a room.
I mean, I was already bringing the VA-185G to at least 50% of my gigs because the tone quality and convenience of having a ~20lb amp was so attractive. I always felt it really nailed the character I was looking for and got from my 1939 EH-185. But it's funny how much better it is with the swap, and I already really dug it so much to begin with.
I think Field Coil speakers from the 30's/40's were far more efficient than the "vintage" Alnico speakers that replaced them. Plus, I think some degree of speaker grind is part of the Tweed tone people dig, whereas I really don't get much speaker grind at all from the field coil in my EH-185. The Lil Texas is a particularly efficient speaker from what I've been told.
-
Which Tone Tubby did you have? I have and use the TT Red Alnico's in a couple of my amps and it's a favorite. It is big, fat, and efficient--sometimes a bit too much so. It's an expensive speaker though, and maybe a bit "too much" for the 185 type circuit. I have tried it in a semi-open back cab with my EH185 via the extension speaker jack and it transforms it into a different animal for sure!
-
Stringmaster, the speaker in my 185 has a small sticker that says tone tubby and a big sticker on the back that says V47 Chicago Tone Classic. The frame is black. I seem to remember that the power rating was very low. I really like alnico speakers. I think it certainly would be great in another amp. But I felt like I wanted more clean top end. Please, nobody take this as a knock on V47 amps. Huge fan. I also have an Oahu Suitcase, which is great.
-
Funny, I actually would love to try this, but I can't. I have a V47 English Tonemaster. As I understand it, the circuit is very similar to the VA 185, but the cabinet is not. I once tried to put an Emminence speaker in there and the basket was too wide to also get the amp chassis in. I've got a Weber 12A125A in there right now and it's happy, but it *is* relatively low db, so it does get somewhat gainy. Fortunately the 12A125A has a wonderful top end. The trebles are thick but it rolls off the fizz a bit. I have thought about putting a 12A150A instead for more headroom, but I'm happy enough with it most of the time. Where I've played lately they have stocked their own amp and I've been too lazy to bring my own. I just bring a Junior Barnyard pedal from Tavo Vega and it does the trick well enough if I want to thicken the tone like an old Gibson amp.
Maybe I'll have to get my own VA 185. It seems like all the cool kids have one. I snoozed on the chance to snag one for about $600 on ebay once. I still kick myself when I'm reminded.
-
I don't know what model, because it's branded as a "Vintage '47" speaker, but sourced from TT. I don't believe its the Red Alnico since it doesn't look at all like it.
Originally Posted by stringmaster
-
Yeah, the Eminence Lil Texas does take quite a bit more room, and realistically it's just because it has a larger frame. I had to move the output transformer a couple inches to fit in my 185.
I just threw a second Lil Texas in the "150" cabinet last night. The extension cab came with a 1/4" jack mounted on a plate that more or less matches the outside dimensions of a chassis, and it doesn't fit with a speaker. Even then, there's no fitting the quilter 101 in there, and having a separate head and speaker kind of defeats the purpose for me. I'm guessing I'll probably have Steve make a 185 circuit/chassis to fit the smaller cab and larger speaker, which he said he could do, and then throw the Quilter in a 185 Cabinet.
Steve actually emailed a couple additional ideas we're gonna tinker around with, so there's still some more stuff to work out.
And man, I wish I could test out a Junior Barnyard before buying one, because I feel like it would be the perfect solution to dealing with backline amps on the road, but Tavo makes them to order so there's not a spare for me to test out.
Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
-
david the originator of v47 amps used the basic tone tubby speakers..they were the cheaper tone tubby san raphael line...not the more expensive red models
ceramic mag speakers are 60's!! (when using alnico magnets became cost prohibitive)...hard to believe a more period correct alnico speaker couldn't be found!!!
tavo's nocturne moonshine 39 and michiels (elektra amps) both use alnico mag speakers
also alnico speakers are some of of the most efficient speakers made...around the 100 db mark per 1 watt
michiel uses the great celestion gold...hard to beat that speaker..in most applications
cheers
-
Has anyone here played both the Elektra and the Vintage 47 185? I'm curious just how different and how similar they are, especially given the not insignificant price difference. Originally Posted by neatomic
-
How would this amp respond to bebop or chord melody with a full band? Does it have enough headroom to keep up with a moderately well behaved drummer?
-
haha..it's the kind of amp that kept up with gene krupa, chick webb, jo jones, etc etc....the real big band era
are there more powerful/cleaner choices these days?..of course, yes..but it all depends on your tonal preferences
some people want true vintage tone and settle for nothing less...others like the idea and look (which is equally intoxicating) but can stretch the parameters of what vintage tone is a bit
no harm, no foul...just keep digging
cheers
-
I'm thinking of pulling a trigger on a used VA-185 with the stock speaker, and reading those reports I think I would eventually swap it for Lil Texas. Originally Posted by campusfive
The only thing I'm not quite sure reading the highlighted sentence, how do you move a transformer? Is it an easy thing to do yourself, or you have to take it to an amp repairman? Anyone can help?
I PM'd Jonathan about it, but so far haven't heard back.
-
I didn't have to move the transformer in my amp to install the speaker, plenty of clearance. I suppose that since they are hand made that exact placement of the transformer varies from amp to amp. It's a very small transformer attached to the side of the amp with two screws. It would be very easy to move, if you needed to.
-
Yup, that's your answer. Originally Posted by Bobbyjr
Sorry, I don't necessarily check in with the site daily, or if I do, I may not have time to respond. My day job's been especially shitty and time consuming at the moment, so I'm not returning communication that quickly.
-
interestingly. this is what tavo @ nocturne amps..who makes the moonshine 39 amp & jr barnyard pedal recently wrote on the gdp..
its a cool looking valco/supro amp in an EH-185 cabinet!
which is absolutely correct, and the way v47 founder david barnes originally envisioned it...not bad or good, just what it is
a 50's valco based amp...but with a circa 60's era ceramic speaker?...not very 40's gibby vintage authentic
a low watt celestion blue alnico get you closer
cheers
-
No problem man I understand. Originally Posted by campusfive
But still not quite clear... the transformer is attached to the chassis, right? It kept in place with the screws, so to move it, do you have to take the chassis out of the cab, drill new holes in the chassis somewhere, and then screw the transformer back in the new place? That's how I picture it, what am I missing?
-
Yea, but from what the guys said about Lil Texas, louder, clearer, lighter... That sounds great to me. I have V47 Spectator, 7W, nice break up tone, but soooo dark and very under powered! Meaning it doesnt cut through the band very well. The authenticity is the last thing I worry about. Originally Posted by neatomic
I have a weekly gig in a very small bar, very quiet drummer playing with the brushes, and the Spectator is still not loud enough! Should be perfect, but not really. Ted Weber speaker is to blame IMO.
Just out of experiment, I brought AER Alpha one day, plugged in my tele through the LR Baggs preamp and Mojo overdrive on minimum gain, and everyone was like wow yeah, finally nice clear tone with tons of presence! Haha it did sound good though, but I want an octal tube amp that cuts through, that's not a lot to ask no?
-
The transformer is not on the chassis. It is screwed into the wood on side of the amp near the speaker.
-
OK, the guy who sells it, the pic looks like it's on the chassis. Same on the website btw. I could be wrong, but does yours look like that? Originally Posted by Bobbyjr
-
hep..the lil texas has a power rating of 125 watts!!! and super efficient.. way over what that amp needs...you aint even gonna move the speaker cone..not true to the amp!
the old tones had grit..alnico mag speakers that were rated for 10-15 watts..they added to the amp tube tone...why i mentioned alnico blue
i'm sure spectator 7 would benefit from more efficient speaker change, no doubt...
cheers
-
Neatomic, you may very well be right, but... the Celestion- 9.5 pounds!! Lil Texas- 4 pounds! There is not even a competition. I buy amps by the weight, like all NYC musicians haha.
Oh and the price, $270 for a speaker, you gotta be kidding...
-
Hep, that is what my amp looks like. But, there is another, much smaller transformer. It is located below the chassis, mounted on the side of the amp. Jonathan refered to it as the output transformer.
-
I have read many interesting comments here about the Vintage 47 VA-185G amp and the JR Barnyard preamp pedal. Both seem to have many fans. I am considering one or the other to get more of a Charlie Christian-type sound. My only current amp is a blackface Deluxe Reverb, which sounds great. I also have two guitars with p90s and a Tele. I'm looking primarily for the octal amp sound with a little compression, as opposed to much distortion and overdrive. Should I get the amp or would the pedal with my Fender amp do the trick? Is there another, better alternative, aside from CC pickups? Any thoughts appreciated. Thanks.
Reply With Quote
Jam Session Journal (April 2024)
Today, 02:46 AM in From The Bandstand