-
Hi
I've decided to go full hog into fingerstyle jazz. I've even enrolled at Martin Taylor's Online school. So I am very much into his clean, clear tone and voicings. I play solo and will never be part of a jazz trio, etc.
I have played jazz with inexpensive archtops (Aria FA71, Gretsch G5120), semi-hollow (Ibanez As73, Tele Thinline), solids (Les Paul, Tele, Strat) and even my trusty Larrivee L03R. All had strengths and weaknesses. So now I’m looking for the ONE guitar. The Tolkeinian One guitar to rule them all. I have accepted that the classical position as Taylor recommends is best. That makes the solid bodies awkward even though I love the tone and fell of my Tele. The Aria sounded nice amplified and played so nice but a 17” guitar in classical position is like dancing with a bear. The Gretsch G5120 is not bad in this position but it is really an electric guitar that has marginal jazz tone. Great for rockabilly and rock or country. I thought about the Larrivee which is a very good acoustic guitar but acoustic guitars seem to have poor action in the higher registry - I’d have to adjust the action which would make it less effective as a traditional acoustic guitar for strumming accompiament.
I was thinking about the Martin Taylor Virtuoso which seems purpose built for exactly what I want but while, not expensive in jazz guitar terms, would still require me selling another guitar like my Les Paul. Or is the solid top MT Maestro worth the additional money?
What about some of the solid top 16” Peerless and Eastman or The Loar? I think a 15” would still be more comfy. Or a used G10. These are small but I worry the sound is designed for an amp. I wouldn’t be limited to unplugged playing but I’ve found that many traditional voiced lam top archtops tend to only sound good when you’re going for a Wes sound.
Sorry for the long post and thanks.
-
01-17-2013 06:24 PM
-
If I'm going classical position, I want smaller...
Honestly, for all fingers classical position playing, I prefer a solid body--like a telecaster...Playing softly with fingers on an archtop is kind of a waste to me, as they sound so good when you dig in with a pick...even a laminated box with routed pickups...
If you need it to be a "jazz" guitar, Eastman makes some smaller archtops, and then there's the Ibanez Bensons, which are really nice. I'd advise against the Loar, those are vintage style archtops that really sound best hit hard with a pick...
-
Well Joe Pass primarily used a Gibson ES-175 for his famous Virtuoso recordings, so there's nothing wrong with a traditional laminated archtop for fingerstyle. It's probably as much a matter of individual technique as the instrument.
I think the Godin Kingpin is wonderful for fingerstyle, given its smallish size, comfortable neck and P90 pickups which IMO pick up the nuances of fingerstyle better than other magnetic pickups. The acoustic sound is warm, if not too loud.
i will throw out another thought though - a nylon string hybrid, which is really made for finger style jazz. The Taylor nylons are fantastic sounding and comfortable, and Sadowsky makes a flattop hybrid which is awesome.
-
Jim Soloway, the designer and builder of those beautiful fingerstyle Tele's in the other thread, will be moving to the Vancouver area this year. Great player, great builder, really nice guy.
-
honestly speaking I find Joe's tone on the Virtuoso records so bad that I can't stand listening to it. All his superb playing is lost for me because his tone hurts my ears. Sure enough a very personal and subjective perception ... I don't disagree with anything you said of course.
Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
-
It seems odd to select a guitar based on a pre-chosen physical playing position, rather than to find a guitar that has the performance and dynamic attributes required to produce the sounds you want. A fingerstyle instrument is typically set up with softer string tension and/or lower action. A nylon guitar has the former. An electric steel string guitar has the latter and might have the former as well. A flattop or archtop pure acoustic is compromised by both, unless it is primarly played with amplification.
Sustain is a good attribute because fingerstyle usually has a more subtle attack component than a hard plectrum, hence the suitability of solidbody electrics and the challenge of a parallel braced archtop like an L-5.
My advice would be to first find a general size/shape archetype that fits your classical position requirement first. Then seek guitars with different construction but which fit those dimensions. So look at 14", 15", 16", 17", and 18" lower bout instruments. Look at 1.75", 2.5", and 3" depth. Is a cutaway important? Once you have the basic physical form, you can look at carved, laminate, solid, semi, steel, and nylon options.
Also, resign yourself that this probably won't be "the one" no matter how carefully you aim.
-
Thanks for the info. I pretty much summarize this in my original post. Why classical position? Because I think it offers the most control. I used to play classical so I'm comfortable with this position. Why not a classical guitar? Because I don't like the tone for 70% of the music I want to play and the neck is too wide for a lot of the stuff I play. I guess I'm heavily influenced by Martin Taylor as I'm enrolled in his online school and I could just buy his sig Peerless guitar, but I want to get other peoples thoughts. I have a great sounding Tele but I want more of an acoustic archtop tone. I don't want the classic Wes tone despite how much I admire the man. I think either a 15" or 16" gitar would work. I had a 17" Aria FA71 but it was too big. Sounded good, though.
-
I'm a little hesitant to get involved here since i have a commercial interest in the topic. On the other hand, I've been playing mostly electric finger style for about 50 years, so it is a topic in which I have more than a passing interest.
My first piece of advice is have an open mind. My second piece of advice is get your hands physically on as many types of guitars as you possibly can. Find out of classical position really translates to a different platform for you or are you better off using a very short strap or even a different position. What size works best for you? You'll never know until you try a bunch. Is there a maximum weight that you're comfortable with? Do you need additional spacing width or are you comfortable on a conventional width? And on and on. Those answers really depend on you so you can't really get them by talking on a chat board. You can only get them by putting your hands on the instruments. So go to any stores in the area that have a bunch of guitars and make a pest of yourself. They're used to it so don't worry about what they think.
Invest some time and effort and you'll learn what works best for you. After all, in the end its only your opinion that matters. And if you want to talk about it, feel free to call or e-mail any time. As most people (including my wife) will tell you, I like talking guitars.
-
i play every guitar i own, acoustic or electric, from 13" to 17" wide and 1 3/4" to 3 1/2" deep in the classical position. or i just stand. simple solutions, man. strangely, i do prefer to wear a strap, even when sitting. put one on that tele- its a cheap experiment.
you could also try different pups/caps/pots in your gretsch. they are a little more versatile than people realize. if your larrivee isn't working for you, maybe try one of their om shaped guitars. om style guitars are essentially designed for fingerstyle playing (though not fingerstyle jazz, mind you).
but it seems there's an acoustic spruci-ness in his tone that you may have to get from a floater equipped archtop of some kind.
and as noted earlier, this guy knows a thing or two on the matter:
-
You could seek something that breaks all the rules, like this ergo acoustic guitar built for me by Chris Forshage.
- Arched spruce top
- Flat, braced back like a flattop
- Guatemalan rosewood back and sides
- Floating 12 pole Kent Armstrong PAF
- Strung with GHS Silk & Bronze strings
Plays and sets up like an archtop, sounds acoustically like a parlor flattop, and amplifies like an L-5. And of course, the design puts the neck up in an ergonomic position.
-
Very cool guitar. I suspect it is beyond my budget. I like your Youtube channel. Some great stuff.
Last edited by DRS; 01-18-2013 at 11:36 PM.
-
great seeing Roger and Jim Soloway and their results speak for themselves...great advice guys!
I always feel odd giving advice since personal preference is in the eyes of the beholder as they say.
I play pretty much exclusively fingerstyle jazz, but definitely not in a classical position, so i am no help there. That said, i wonder if you are considering string spacing at the bridge in your decision making? I have found I like a little more room for my plucking hand to fit between the strings for cleaner technique and standard electric guitar spacing too tight for me. I wont quote the usual 1-3/4"(for example) nut spacing figures as I don't need the gap at the nut, just at the bridge and some builders can work with standard nut spacing and just spread the bridge spacing while accommodating the taper of the fretboard. For primarily pickstyle playing, less spacing is more economical, on the other hand. YMMV.
anyhow, food for thought. Have fun choosing.
-
Actually, what I paid for that guitar in money would shock you - far too little. But I made up for it by waiting two years for it to be completed. It was a from scratch design, requiring new jigs, drawings, bracing experiments, and a couple of component failures along the way. It's pretty special, though. Chris made a small body produce very rich sound.
Mike makes a good point about spacing on both ends of the strings. And even though you are smitten by Mr. Taylor's chops (and who wouldn't be?), check out Mike! The cat is a monster himself on those 7 strings.
-
Hopefully the OP won't mind me jumping in here!
Interesting thread for me. I have a Comins GCS-1 that I would like to use for fingerstyle. While I like the guitar quite a lot, I have had trouble finding a way to position it to optimize playing. I, too, like the classic position, if by that we mean neck-up. However, seating the guitar on my left leg (on a Dynarette cushion) places this 16 fret guitar neck too far to the left. Using a strap, because of the weight distribution of the instrument, does not give me the proper neck up angle. I have tried to use a combination of the strap and the cushion on my right leg, but the cushion is not designed for that leg and doesn't brace the guitar properly.
Suggestions?
-
That's why classical guitars are so comfy in the classical position-12 frets to the body move your left hand in close to the body. How about a 14" carved top, 12 fret to the body archtop with a cutaway? <crazy thoughts>
-
I very much agree with all three points. Everyone should be smitten with Martin Taylor's chops. Mike is a complete monster. And a true fingerstyle guitar should have extra space at both ends of the strings. When we began to make our fingerstyle guitars we re-engineer the geometry to add and additional 1/8" all the way from nut to bridge. It was a major PIA but well worth the effort. Originally Posted by rpguitar
-
I like Jim Soloway's latest build he's sending to Deutschland. Cool.
I experimented with a number of seating positions and maybe I was getting a bit over excited having just signed up for the Taylor school. For now I think I will stay with my Tele in a conventional right leg seated style like Jim Soloway plays with one leg up. It is a custom USACG build I did with a 1 3/4 nut, SS frets, and a 12" radius. I have Daddario 11-49 Half Wounds on it. Great fingerstyle strings. It has an excellent clear tone. I actually built it with fingerstyle in mid and the SD Vintage Minibucker is outstanding. But I still think a 12 fret 14-15"carved top full hollowbody all solid wood X braced archtop would be an ultra cool guitar. If only I had $7000 for a custom build.
-
Thanks for the kind words on the new build. We're pretty much done with that 15" body shape. Once we complete what's in the pipeline, it's probably done for good.
And be careful playing with the right foot in raised position. I did it for about a year to relieve the pain in my lower back. It worked for a while but after several months the pain just moved to my hip. Now I'm playing with a very short strap with both feet squarely on the ground and the guitar off of my lap. In the end I just found it much easier to build up strength in my shoulders and get all the stress off my lower back and my hip completely and this way, if I try to bend, the guitar automatically moves with me so I can never get hunched over the body of the instrument.
And I agree with feet about a shorter scale length helping but at least in my experience, you don't need to go as short as a Byrdland. 24.75" is short enough to get a real benefit. I have a Tele with a conversion neck plus we've been building a few of our hollow T shaped body with a true 24.75" scale length (as vs a conversion neck) and I find that they do sit in a much better playing position than my T with the full 25.5 in scale length.
-
hi ya ...... yeah i too play pro as a fingerstyle /multipart jazz guitarist
and i must say the choice you need to make is very personal ......... as what is mentioned above you need to find instruments that suit your style.........
just cos martin taylor gets great results from his guitars does not mean you will.... as physically we all very different in body size.......
as in i am very tall with a long trunk and long arms and fingers which means a telecaster looks tiny on me and a 335 does not sit at the right angle for me (i play seated ) .....
in my career i have used nylon strings , 175's ,335's epi emperor regents and various hofners a tele and a strat .......and each one was good enough for me to perform on live and get a good sound and be playable for my gigs ..... but of course each is also very different .........
so find out what you like and more importantly the features are that you just can't cope with .........
for me it's a heavy guitar .... as in weight to me the lighter the better too heavy and i won't want it no matter how good it's other features are
for me personally ....... i like ... light weight /all hollow /vintage sounding pick ups/and i must be able to sit comfortably and play
and beyond that i'm open to chop and change on the design ........
and i have found as i grow as a player (yes i been a pro for 25yrs and still grow daily) my needs change .... so an instrument i use and love this year could NOT be what i'm playing in a few yrs time
i wish i could settle on just one ................ but i enjoy especially old instruments so i constantly buy them use them for a while and if they don't bond with me or have issues i sell them off and move on
at moment i mainly play fingerstyle jazz on a vintage hofner 457 (dated sept 1960 15" archtop ) and another 60's thinline i can't identify( but same shape as a hofner verythin with p90's) .... and i love em both ......... i get a great live sound out of both YET the thinline is noticably more comfortable because of the thin body ... but i use both ...
so find what suits you and forget finding just one.......... it's fun to work your way thru a lot of guitars...... it's a passion in itself .......
but good luck .and yes i too am a huge martin taylor fan
-
I bought an 'as new' Peerless Virtuoso off ebay some weeks back. 40% off the UK new price. Not sure why the guy sold it. I bought it on a whim, thinking I could probably recoup most of the money if I didn't like it. Of course it's a great instrument, but at the end of the day it's just a laminate guitar with a floating pick up. Great finish etc etc. Looks sublime. The main thing is the small size and slightly wider neck. I won't be selling it on as it's great. But don't get into the trap of thinking you need a specific guitar to play a certain way. I am not a better player than I was when I had my Ibanez AF105 (which I sold to fund this one).
Phil
-
I use my tele mainly for practice at home but my next guitar will be for acoustic fingerstyle so i`m somewhat in the same boat. I`m pretty set on a Martin OM-28 but I play most of my gigs with an acoustic guitar (D-18).
I`m really more of a Chet/Merle Travis style fingerpicker than a Ted Greene or Joe Pass.
-
Well if these aren't words of wisdom, I don't know what is! I couldn't have said it better myself. The next time I'm fretting about working my way through too many guitars, I need to recite this quote. Thanks Keira! Originally Posted by Keira Witherkay
I am in love with a different guitar every couple of weeks. It's been ES-175, Sadowsky SS-15, Gibson L-5C, and now my Warmoth Tele. What's next I wonder?!
-
I too play in the classical position,seated.I wasn't taught that way.It's just the way I find most comfortable and in fact when I joined this forum a while back I posed the question"Does anyone else play jazz guitar like this?"I normally play a 16 inch Eastman archtop and I'm only 5 foot five.I also play my Tele,my Epi Sheraton and my Tanglewood electro acoustic in the same position.It has been remarked upon that it looks strange but it suits me.
By the way I think Martin Taylor is the Crown Prince but Joe Pass is the King.
-
Hi Roger Originally Posted by rpguitar
You could seek something that breaks all the rules, like this ergo acoustic guitar built for me by Chris Forshage.
- Arched spruce top
- Flat, braced back like a flattop
- Guatemalan rosewood back and sides
- Floating 12 pole Kent Armstrong PAF
- Strung with GHS Silk & Bronze strings
Plays and sets up like an archtop, sounds acoustically like a parlor flattop, and amplifies like an L-5. And of course, the design puts the neck up in an ergonomic position.
I was looking at you guitar here again and wondered why silk'n'bronze strings. Aren't they usually for guys who want to string up a classical guitar without a truss rod with steel strings for a different tone?
-
Nah, these are GHS Silk and Bronze, not the usual Silk and Steel. There is a difference with these particular strings. They are basically just slightly softer tension normal phosphor bronze strings. I like their sound on the Forshage, which happens to be a bright and shimmery-jangly little thing. I've had 80/20s on it too, and those are nice. Regular PBs, though, don't do it for me on this guitar.
Reply With Quote
Wolf Marshalls Jazz Guitar Course
Today, 09:42 AM in Getting Started