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I'm wondering if there are any recommendations for speakers that sound particularly good at low volumes ?
The situation is this: my current home rig for jazz, blues and fusion is based around a Fender Super Champ X2 head (channel 1 only) and an Eminence Cannabis Rex speaker cab. I am using this for home recording using an SM57 clone. For this purpose and for practice in my Leeds pied-a-terre, the volume control has never been above 4.
Now, the Cannabis Rex is a 50W speaker being driven by a 15W amp at below 40% of its maximum volume and is noted for being a dark speaker. I have also heard said that it is even darker if it is not driven reasonably hard. Maybe this explains why I feel that my playing lacks some top-end sparkle (of course, it could be just my playing). In the next few days I hope to make a recording that will compare the line-out from the amp directly with the miked sound, but I am coming round to the conclusion that I may end up with a speaker swap. Hence my above question.
So, are there speakers in the 20 to 50 W range that are known to maintain their full tone at low volumes and are equally good for clean and overdriven sounds ? Or is that a stupid question ? Don't get me wrong - I don't want to swing too far the other way and get something excessively bright - although that may be easier to deal with than the other extreme.
I will be needing an 8 ohm 12" version to match the SuperChamp and fit in my cab., although if someone insists I need to go down to 10", I will take the suggestion seriously.
I note that Fender's own cab for the SuperChamp has a Celestion G12 P-80, whilst the stock Princeton RRI has a Jensen C10R, hence a C12R is a possibility if I want to go with a Princeton vibe. But, I'm happy to listen to any advice (including turning up the treble on my EQ !)Last edited by newsense; 11-18-2014 at 10:11 AM.
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11-18-2014 10:09 AM
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No personal experience, but a friend who builds his own low wattage valve amps really rates the Alnico Jensen, P12R.
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The C-Rex is THAT dark.
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Try and EQ the amp first!
Failing that as Ibanez said, the Jensen P12R has lots of sparkle (the N version is great too).
However, I doubt if you'd do better than a Celestion Blue. Right power range and a speaker with a strong top end without being harsh and a lot of chime and sparkle .. loud too!
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Read this:
Vintage Alnico | Jensen Loudspeakers
I obsessively compared a bunch of different 8" speakers in Randall RG8 enclosures this summer and fall, including two different Eminences, a Celestion, and a Jensen. Same requirements as you, i.e. supposed to sound good at low volumes. I have found the Jensen (a P8R Alnico) to be a category of its own in this department. Haven't done any recordings but listend extensively to the speaker miked through a mixer preamp and phones. I known it sound ridiculous, but I could get really good sounds at levels that were barely audible without the headphones against the acoustic tone even of my solidbody guitars.
So, yes, +1 for Jensen Alnico, plus I would go for a particulaly low-sensitivity one.
Meanwhile, I have also replaced the Weber speaker in my Bugera V5 with a P8R. As an aside, I found the Weber in the Bugera the poorest of all those 8" candidates, whereas the original Randall speaker in the RG8 is actually surprisingly good (still talking about low volumes) once you add bass, so IMO these 60€ for a Randal RG8 are money well spent (the only other speaker I liked better was the Eminence Alpha 8; didn't like the Eminence 820H as much as the Randall, not did the Celestion cut it for my applications, although both of these may be great in other situations; that said, the Eminence 820H can sound wonderful with the neck single-coil pickup on the Tele).
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Earlier in the summer started working on my home practice setup. I got an Orange Amp 1x8 sealed back cabinet they are cheap with one of GC's discount coupon's I think it was around $75. It works well at low volume, but designed for rock it's has a bit of bite when digging in. I will at some point put a more Jazz oriented speaker in it. After I got the Orange 1x8 I came across a deal on a used RE NY 8" and got that, really like the RE.
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Having read some of your previous posts on this issue, I assume that its a statement and not a question !
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Last edited by newsense; 11-18-2014 at 03:53 PM.
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Some great info here - many thanks guys.
As I have an empty 8" cab - a cheap Marshall box - I may try an 8" Jensen first.
As a bonus, I can get the P8R for less than 50 quid, which gives me an interesting alternative to my 12" C-Rex. If successful, I can always dump the cheap Marshall chipboard box and exercise my carpentry skills on some Baltic pine !Last edited by newsense; 11-18-2014 at 03:51 PM.
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A statement Originally Posted by newsense
I understand why some people love it - cheap, loud, dark and fat. A little too much in my opinion.
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My bad - it's actually a 10", so I will probably go for a P10R, which has actually inhabited the cab previously....but that's another story. Originally Posted by newsense
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IMO the P10R-F (as opposed tp the P10R) looks particularly interesting.
Lower sensitivity and broken-in sound.
Perhaps I'm prejudiced, but both Eminence speakers (and the Celestion, too) sounded better to me out of the box. The Jensens took an hour or two to open up.
(BTW, the Bugera V5 comes with a Turbosound rather than a Weber speaker. So please disregard anything I may have said about Weber speakers.)
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+1 Jensen P12R
+1 Jensen P12N
I am using both speakers in 5e3 replicas at low volumes and the sparkle is great--especially the "R." Some folks have pooh-poohed the Italian, Recoton-owned Jensen speakers, but I find these two speakers to be quite good.
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If your main priority/concern is for recording (i.e., "getting a good recorded sound"), that's kind of a whole other animal ... Check in with Jim Soloway here or someone else with good recording/engineering skills -- they'll let you know what to do for a good recorded sound. [and it may be completely different gear altogether!]
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Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
You must understand that it also depends HEAVILY on the amp it's put into, right? Granted, it's darkER than all of the Jensen-alikes, but there are still darker speakers than the C-Rex. But we all hear things the way we hear them, which is not the way EVERYBODY hears them....
For example, I could very easily turn it around and say the Jensens are THAT BRIGHT. Neither of us would be "Wrong", but I caution people taking tonal reviews of these things based on other people's ears, and amps, and pickups....
The C-rex is darker than any Jensen.
Any Jensen is brighter than the C-Rex.Last edited by ruger9; 11-18-2014 at 10:17 PM.
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+1 Originally Posted by ruger9
Sage advice
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I do understansd. My experience with the C Rex is on Fender amps. My point is the problems the OP is facing are not volume related - it's how that speaker sounds. There are darker speakers if you define dark as less treble. If you define dark as more bass then the C Rex is hard to beat.. in my experience. Originally Posted by ruger9
Well, when you come to a forum you're asking for other people's opinions based on their experiences right?
Anyway I am just calling a speaker dark and you seem to agree
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That was my first thought. If the amps EQ isn't enough, get an EQ pedal. I like the ParaEQ, but a Boss GE may well do the job. Originally Posted by old tube
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Very important and worth noting again. Not only hearing, but in how they use words. What is bassy or boomy to might be deep or dark to another or that's a Jazz sound to someone else. Best to use internet as place to get ideas for things to investigate further and then do your own listening. Originally Posted by ruger9
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It's a bit of a guess without your thoughts on the brightness of the line out signal.
A couple of ideas spring to mind.
First mic'ing. On axis on the centre of the speaker cone gives the brightest tone.
Since you have a blues leaning and you want to reap the rewards of the power valves then it might be worth looking at an isolation box for your cab. With a low wattage head and just a 1x12 cab it wouldn't be a big job to make one. Regardless of whether you end up going the EQ route or the speaker swap route being able to get the amp turned up without upsetting neighbours is always a bonus.
Lastly, if you can borrow a graphic EQ then run it in front of the amp as a mids and bass cut and the trebles at unity. This will give you a treble boost without too much hiss. This would also enable you to open up the power section too. If you can't borrow one then let me know, I have an old 7 band Behringer EQ that you can havefor the price of the postage. You would then know if it was worth buying a better quality one.
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Chimera1to1 - thanks for your ideas. In fact, I was already experimenting with my Boss GE-7 when your post came up.
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No problem. Let us know how you get on.
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Instead of a speaker swap, I've decided to have my ears syringed !
As suggested above, I set up to record two channels simultaneously, one from the mike close coupled to the speaker and one channel from the line out of the SuperChamp. I then played them back sequentially. Both tracks sounded identical to my ears, whether using my hollowbody with flat-wounds or my thinline with a touch of overdrive.
Perhaps I need to look elsewhere in my signal chain (or even in my fingers) for the lack of sparkle.
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