Why did Gibson stop making the regular ES-175

[Patrick2]

Patrick, I think you are 100% correct. Carve the top as they normally do and brace it like a L5.

Uh-oh!! Not sure that's gonna be something that Jim will want to do. When I asked him about the two options, either a laminate top and back . . or, the L5 (wings) bracing on a carved top, his reply was that no one from C.B. Perkins ever asked about the laminate. We did discuss the possibility of an L5 type bracing and his response was . . "we don't brace our arch tops that way". I didn't press further on that, because I was under the impression that your preference was a laminate top and back . . and the wings off of the parallel bracing was only an optional alternative if the lam wasn't do-able. Knowing Jim as I do . . his response of "we don't brace our arch tops that way" . . interprets as "no, I won't do that". But, I'm not sure of it. I just didn't press forward and ask if he would make an exception.

They're not in today . . they're off on Fridays. If the L5 bracing is they way you want to go . . then either you, me or C. B. Perkins needs to have that discussion directly with Jim Deurloo. Let me know if you would like me to make the telephone call for you.

Also, Just as a suggestion . . I know you are familiar with the different Seymour Duncan pups. I do love the Seth Lover and have several guitars with them. But, the Duncan '59 will probably get you closer to the "thunk" of a good 175 than a Seth will.

[vinnyv1k]

Thanks for the heads up and help Patrick. I have talked to Jim in the past on Heritage builds he did for me in the past and I got the sense that he can get grumpy. Might be best to let him build it his way and hope for the best ? Do not want to piss off anyone building my guitar. Luthiers like musicians have very strong opinions. I will take your advise on the pickup though and if you can get that changed that would be cool. Strange as C B Perkins told me that Heritage told them they wouldn't build a Laminate 575. Maybe they just got that from there Heritage rep and not Jim himself. I don't know. I would really like a laminate 575C but that doesn't seem like it is going to happen. I do believe Jim remembers me as he built me a Golden Eagle, a Super Eagle, and a H550 all through CB Perkins and every build had all kinds of problems on there side. They had to rebuild 2 of them. Took forever to get the guitars. Jim WAS very sorry to me. Maybe if you mention my name ( Vincent Kowski ) he might soften. Is Vince still at Heritage or did he retire ? He was always super nice to talk to.

[Patrick2]

Thanks for the heads up and help Patrick. I have talked to Jim in the past on Heritage builds he did for me in the past and I got the sense that he can get grumpy. Might be best to let him build it his way and hope for the best ? Do not want to piss off anyone building my guitar. Luthiers like musicians have very strong opinions. I will take your advise on the pickup though and if you can get that changed that would be cool. Strange as C B Perkins told me that Heritage told them they wouldn't build a Laminate 575. Maybe they just got that from there Heritage rep and not Jim himself. I don't know. I would really like a laminate 575C but that doesn't seem like it is going to happen. I do believe Jim remembers me as he built me a Golden Eagle, a Super Eagle, and a H550 all through CB Perkins and every build had all kinds of problems on there side. They had to rebuild 2 of them. Took forever to get the guitars. Jim WAS very sorry to me. Maybe if you mention my name ( Vincent Kowski ) he might soften. Is Vince still at Heritage or did he retire ? He was always super nice to talk to.

It seems we're miscommunicating on the matter of the laminate top and back. Jim said he's OK with doing that for you. so, you can indeed get it done on the 575 Custom. What I said was, I'm not sure about the Gibson L5 type bracing on a carved top. I did get a bit of push back on that. But, as I said . . I never pressed it further. Further more, you'll not piss of Jim by calling him directly. He does prefer to communicate through the dealers. But, if there is a very particular concern from an end user, he'll take the call and discuss the matter.

Regarding getting the pickup sopec changed from the Seth to the '59, I can't do that unless an order has been placed by C.B. Perkins and recorded at Heritage. You'll need to discuss that with them. If they haven't placed the order yet, just have them change it. If they have placed the order, they'll need to change it. It would be arrogant and lacking in protocol for me to change an order placed by a dealer. The dealer is buying the guitar from Heritage, not you. You're buying it from the dealer. Also, if you do call C. B. Perkins, . . ask them why you were misinformed about the laminate top . . and make sure they communicate to Jim at Heritage that you do want a laminate top. Then, I can follow that through. But, it has to be ordered that way by Perkins.

What I will do, is remind them of the difficulties you went through on your past custom orders . . and ask them to take extra care to make sure this one goes more smoothly.

[Greentone]

Heritage guitars are BARGAINS!

Relative to grumpiness: Can you imagine taking a shopping list to Jimmy D'Aquisto? He was a delightful guy, but he was also a master. His ex-boss...more so, from what I've ascertained. These guys would listen to your ideas, but THEY were the builders.

D'Angelico would seriously attempt to talk folks out of truss rods. Reason? The guitars systematically sounded BETTER without them, and John D could build a neck that wouldn't move without a rod.

We have developed such a customer-oriented society that I suppose we are entitled to have builders build in our dumb#ss ideas into a guitar, violin, bass, etc. The builders can see it coming. Sometimes, they just don't want to put their names on such things. The right thing to do is to patiently discuss such matters with potential customers. If the customer still wants a radically convex fretboard--a big hill in the middle of the neck, so that the strings will lay flat against the frets--just diplomatically refrain from accepting the contract.

I used to listen to customers' wish lists for amplifiers. When they got way "out there," I would say "I think you need another builder." I just didn't enjoy building amps with, say, four gain stages that cascade into each other, providing the customer every opportunity to produce blocking distortion in the phase inverter stage, and no opportunity for the amp to sound decent.

All of which is to say that the folks at Heritage may get grumpy...but they may also see problems with build requests looming and are expressing reluctance to proceed.

[vinnyv1k]

Hey Patrick just got off the phone with C B Perkins. They said Marv said they wouldn't do a laminate 575C. They are going to call again and talk to Jim about doing laminate top and back. I also took your advise and changed the pickup option to a 59 SD. I think we may be good to go now. I appreciate your hand in this and your advise. Vinny

[vinnyv1k]

I knew Jimmy D very well and he was a sweetheart of a guy. I still had to beg him to put a JS pickup on my New Yorker. He would also have a fit if you put light gauge strings on one of his guitars. He would call anything lighter than 13-56, hairs. He would always say to me ( Don't put any hairs on my guitar !!! ).

[Greentone]

Vinny,

Ha! Great story. "Don't put hairs..." I love it. These guys knew what they wanted to build. John D hated building thin necks. They didn't sound right, to him. Well...some customers liked them.

Good thing I'm not a luthier---I wouldn't build a thin neck, either. I would build guitars that I wanted my name to go on. If you don't like that, well...you want somebody else's guitar. It's a market served by many vendors.

Hey, if you want a 3" Gretsch with Elvis on it, and a broken Bigsby, they have that, too.

[barrymclark]

Count me in. I am another lefty that plays righty.

I thought I was the only logical lefty in the world! I consider "righty" to be "lefty" Cut off my right hand and I can still play music with a hook (or prosthetic thumb) on my right arm. Cut off my left??? I have to learn to play all over :-)

Anyway, I have to say, I think your odds are better with a used one than new especially online with a 175.

Since buying sight unseen is a crap shoot, buying used is not such a bad tack, my reasoning may not match up with your financial situation but...

First up is initial cost, second is loss should you decide to sell a used model, clearly a used model can be sold for closer to the price paid than a new one. Third like you already said, the 59 models are being churned out now (I don't like them either) and there's a lot of great older 175's out there now. Like you I prefer the "right" 175 to a 575 but, I like the 575 I have over some dead, lifeless 175's I've played.

Maybe Patrick is being a bit harsh... finding a guitar that you want in your mind's eye is tough, I played a lot of 175's and even bought a 575 and settled on it till I lucked into the 175 (which I bought online) I have. Take your time it's out there, maybe not perfect, but just maybe perfect for you!

PS, I also believe in a "bonding" period with a new guitar. Some just take time getting all of the nuances between you ironed out. I think too many players expect too much from the instrument the moment they first sit with it and don't take enough time with it. IMO that is.

[barrymclark]

Patrick with low tolerance? NOOOO. haha.

Seriously, though, my 575 was the first guitar I just fell absolutely in love with. When I got it, I went through a long period of trying to decide whether or not I liked it... and one day, it occurred to me that it was the guitar I was reaching for more often than not... and, honestly, was the only guitar at the time I just couldn't wait to hear another note from. It was a relationship that started with lust and grew into something more. ...and we don't argue. She's better than me and we both know it. haha.

Gary: I was definitely a bit harsh yesterday. It was a bad day for me. Not making any excuses . . it was what it was. Yesterday was one of those days where I just felt like hurting someone. If I didn't love my daughter's pit bull (and dogs in general) so much, I'd have kicked him in his head. I looked, for a brief moment, at my wife wondering if I should just walk over and wack her. I think she knew what was on my mind . . . because she just gave me one of those . . "go ahead and try it, ass-hole" . . looks. I timidly crawled back into my shell. (I rather f*** with the pit bull). But, I feel a bit better today.

Unfortunately, I've got a very low tolerance level for what I perceive to be whining. It's a real character flaw (one of many) that I deal with constantly. At my age . . I'm not sure it'll ever go away. The OP wasn't whining at all, as I initially perceived. Just being a bit (quite a bit) unreasonably too critical . . IMO. I owe him an apology . . and I offer it to him. He obviously knows what he wants and is unwilling to settle for anything less. OK . . I get that.

But, your council to him is very wise and sage. I think he needs to get a guitar that's *almost* what he's looking for . . and just give it some time. Any of us here, or anywhere, could have found issues with any of our guitars when we first sampled or bought them. Some of those issues are still there . . but forgiven . . based upon other very positive attributes of the guitar. Other of those *perceived* issues were discovered, [after we owned and played the guitar for a while], to be non existent and indeed perceived.

IMO . . when searching for *The One*, one must keep their expectations realistic and reasonable. I'm not saying that one should settle for anything that's absolutely unacceptable. But, to seek absolute perfection, in anything in life, is to set one's self up for disappointment time and time again . . as has the OP in this psrticular matter.

Again . . my apologies to the OP.

[Patrick2]

Patrick with low tolerance? NOOOO. haha.

"Whut chu talkin' 'bout Willis?"

[fritz jones]

how does heritage brace the top on a single set-in humbucker golden eagle?

[Patrick2]

how does heritage brace the top on a single set-in humbucker golden eagle?

It's pretty much up to the person ordering the guitar. Each and every Heritage guitar is built to order. Heritage is truly a custon shop. If someone orders a Golden Eagle with a single inset pup from a dealer and the dealer does not spec the bracing type. Heritage will ask the dealer. If the dealer or the end users is uncertain and leaves it up the Heritage, they will go with an X brace (cross bracing). However, there is no option for a dual inset pup model. It will get tone bars (parallel bracing).