Fender Deluxe Reverb Headroom/Volume

**AlsoRan** · 07-09-2012, 02:36 PM

Hello. Is the Fender '65 Deluxe Reverb RI supposed to be breaking up at "5?" I played my Epiphone Sheraton II with the guitar's volume knob under "7" and still, whenever I hit a very hard chord, it breaks up.

What gives? What happened to my headroom?

(Note: I bought the amp brand new around two years ago and it has less than 12 hours on it. It has sat up, covered in my closet.)

**mr. beaumont** · 07-09-2012, 02:58 PM

Lower your pickup a bit?

5 on a drri is loud...

Maybe it's time to join us solid state users on the darkside...

Kidding aside, have your amp looked at if that's out of the ordinary. There are ways to get more clean out of a tube amp...a good tech could give you ideas on the best solution for you (running 12at7's, biasing cooler, more efficient speaker, etc...)

**docbop** · 07-09-2012, 03:43 PM

What size rooms are you playing Jazz in that you need to run a DRRI on 5?

**whosgarethparry** · 07-09-2012, 03:44 PM

YES!! a deluxe should definitely break up at 5, that's the point. it's 22 watts and the favourite amp of many club players for exactly that reason.

with my '79 silverface, using a thinlineline hollowbody and 13's, i couldn't get much past 4 with out break up..

they don't have a massive amount of headroom. if you want that, you need a twin.

there's a thread on here somewhere about changing the speaker to a high efficiency one, which helps alot apparently, but if you dn't want the break up, you may wanna change amp...

**jorgemg1984** · 07-09-2012, 04:36 PM

Man does everybody here plays duos on small basements? I can see plenty of occasions to put a deluxe on 5.

Mr b's mod suggestions are good for more headroom. But you might really need a louder amp so think twice before starting the mods.

I think that given the same conditions solid state watts and tube watts are equal...

**mr. beaumont** · 07-09-2012, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Man does everybody here plays duos on small basements? I can see plenty of occasions to put a deluxe on 5.

Mr b's mod suggestions are good for more headroom. But you might really need a louder amp so think twice before starting the mods.

I think that given the same conditions solid state watts and tube watts are equal...

I know i am!

Its been a ehile since i played a deluxe...but i feel like a deluxe on 5 should be as loud as most jazz drummers...so if we needed to be louder than that everybody would have to be mic'd up.

I personally haven't played any jazz gigs where that was even an option.

**jorgemg1984** · 07-09-2012, 05:35 PM

Really? I play sometimes unmiced gigs with horns, drummer, double bass...
a Deluxe would not be enough. I remember Vic Juris saying the same, he needed a Twin to gigs with drummers.

**mr. beaumont** · 07-09-2012, 06:12 PM

I must have lower output pickups than you...

Then again, i'm not using a tube amp. Until i'm famous enough to have roadies, i won't be either!

**feet** · 07-09-2012, 06:34 PM

i played a byrdland into a brand new princeton ri in a shop, and it started to break up around 2 or 3. took me forever to figure out what what was wrong with the guitar. kept hearing a slight farty buzz. and the output/volume on a byrdland is pretty low compared to other guitars.

so i guess i believe you. though i've played clean through other lower watt amps at higher volumes (ac15, tophat), so i don't know what to tell you. maybe find something with a master volume, if not solid state.

**jorgemg1984** · 07-09-2012, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I must have lower output pickups than you...

Then again, i'm not using a tube amp. Until i'm famous enough to have roadies, i won't be either!

I am not too but I've had some and played a few others too. These days I am really happy with henriksen head and jazzmaster ultralight head trough some cabs (and an AC-60).

One day if I have some extra money and enough gigs I would like to have a good 6l6 and a good el34 amp in the blackface camp. Right now those two amps are more than enough!

**jorgemg1984** · 07-09-2012, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by Hexatonics

Dont forget not everyone wants to nerd over amps lol. I spent about 3 years mulling over which amp, tubes, etc. It was 10x worse than guitar tech talk.

genreal ruling I came up with, not scientific but works to 99% of the public lol.

Tubes, headroom for jazz at gig 30 watts up at least
Solid state, 60 watts.

At least if you go by those stats, you wont get an amp that breaks up at a gig. Obviously pending on the players and their instruments. I would imagine a 40 watt tube amp will do about anything.

Yes the Blues Jnr is a bit bright bit Ive had it modded with a tri switch. This gets rid of the new fender harsh tone. It uses sag and delay like a 50's amp. Also the new amps have better speakers. I think its the cheep reverb that causes the brittle trebles.

Yeah i know. What I think is sometimes tube amps are voiced in way they cut trough more so you might need less watts; or it can be just how they measure power.

Anyway most people follow a rule near yours for what I understand. I don't have that much experience but I don't think 40w would be enough for me on all gigs... but on most probably. Ideally you would always have a PA so any amp would basically do it but that's not the case.

My Blues Jr was a Series II and most of the times I used external reverb; the stock reverb added highs but the problem was there even with the reverb off. Series III are supposed to be even brighter but with a better stock speaker.

Is that switch inspired by any Billm Mods? What does it do to the amp? I tried a bright control on mine but operated at extreme frequencies, the brightness problem was way below that.

**AlsoRan** · 07-09-2012, 08:55 PM

I guess I am yet another poster child for the downfall of buying an amp based on what you have read.

First of all, that "5" setting seemed loud but not completely outrageous to me. Of course, it could be my ears.

Second, I am starting to understand why solid state is so attractive for Jazz. Plenty of power, depending on the amp, yet you have a wide range of volume settings that you can work with.

I don't play live yet, just with some loud drummers from time to time. I have read often about users of Twin Reverbs having to really crank those 85 watts to get to that "sweet spot."

I thought, through my research at the time, that 22 watts of Deluxe Reverb would be plenty loud, without mic'ing it.

I know no one amp can cover all venues. I am starting to think that Fender JMUL is what I really needed because of its ability to stay clean yet put out a lot of sound.

What is that they say about a fool and his money...

**feet** · 07-09-2012, 10:18 PM

another thing to consider- swapping out your v1 tube. use a lower gain tube in there instead of the 12ax7, like a 12ay7, 12at7 or 12au7. cheap, easy way to squeeze out a little more headroom, and you won't miss the gain on the other end because you (presumably) don't go there.

i forgot which of these i used but it worked for me. stays cleaner longer and a little sweeter sounding. considering it on all my amps, as it does help.

**AlsoRan** · 07-10-2012, 01:07 AM

Originally Posted by feet

another thing to consider- swapping out your v1 tube. use a lower gain tube in there instead of the 12ax7, like a 12ay7, 12at7 or 12au7. cheap, easy way to squeeze out a little more headroom, and you won't miss the gain on the other end because you (presumably) don't go there.

i forgot which of these i used but it worked for me. stays cleaner longer and a little sweeter sounding. considering it on all my amps, as it does help.

Gosh, I am really hesitant to mess with electrical circuits because I have seen how easy it is to mess up a balanced electrical circuit and then have to pay for it with one of the components having a shortened life.

Still, what you say makes sense and appears to be a proven modification. I will consider it or just hope I can properly mic' the darn thing when I need to.

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-10-2012, 03:18 AM

DR has two differently attenuated inputs per channel. Try the other input and see if it makes a difference.

**stevedenver** · 07-10-2012, 09:17 AM

Changing the v1 tube is like changing socks
its not messing with the circuit anymore than turning the tone knob
At7 Ay7. Done both
Easy as plug i

**docbop** · 07-10-2012, 09:56 AM

I have a DRRI and the second channel with the reverb also has cap' on it that is like the bright switch being turned on other Fender amps. Try the first channel out, I like the sound of it better than reverb channel.

I plan to have the cap' removed from the second channel and get the reverb mod'd to be like a 65 not over driven reverb of years later. Also as others have said experimenting with pre-amp tubes is easy and and can help a lot. There are websites and if you have a good amp repair person can tell you the different gain levels of the various versions of pre-amp tubes. I plan to get a lower gain reverb tube to try and get more of the 65 reverb sound.

**jorgemg1984** · 07-10-2012, 10:26 AM

yeah clipping the bright cap is a classic on that amp and pretty easy to do.

**henryrobinett** · 07-10-2012, 10:48 AM

I have a Deluxe -- ORIGINAL '65. I haven't played in for a couple of years, but when I did I never went above 5. It was plenty loud. But then again when I did have to project further there was a PA.

**henryrobinett** · 07-10-2012, 11:13 AM

Yeah. Addendum to my post. My DR was modded many years ago. I can't remember what all was done but it was significant. It still sounds like a DR though.

**cosmic gumbo** · 07-10-2012, 08:41 PM

I have a '68 DR, and I use it in a big band with a semihollow and roundwound 10s. At that volume I'm at the threshold of it's clean headroom, any more volume or heavier picking attack and I'm in crunchville. With heavier strings or flatwounds, especially with a hollowbody, it would be too much for the amp at big band levels. I have a 100w solidstate amp if I need a louder clean.

But...years ago I decided I wouldn't play with guys that needed uncomfortable stage volume, that's why they invented sound reinforcement. I can't stand to use earplugs when I'm playing, and too much volume is unhealthy for your ears. I want mine to last a lifetime.

I know I can add more clean headroom to my DR with speaker and tube swaps, without circuit mods, but that's not why I have a DR. You get a DR because it starts to compress and sing at usable volumes, for more modern sounds, but does clean very well up until that.

**Chito** · 07-14-2012, 09:09 AM

DRs usually break up anywhere above 4. I've played in loud rock bands and I've not gone over 4 with my DR. If you feel that above that is not loud enough for you, maybe it's time t0 switch to a Twin. With the Twin you can get as much clean sound as you want and it won't break up until your ears start to bleed.

**Duesenberg** · 07-14-2012, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Lower your pickup a bit?

5 on a drri is loud...

Maybe it's time to join us solid state users on the darkside...

Kidding aside, have your amp looked at if that's out of the ordinary. There are ways to get more clean out of a tube amp...a good tech could give you ideas on the best solution for you (running 12at7's, biasing cooler, more efficient speaker, etc...)

+1 for post #2 he nailed it.

A 12a(t/u/y)7 tube is under $15 and should fix the problem.

**rhanchin** · 07-14-2012, 02:57 PM

I have the same Deluxe Reverb Reish and it serves me well in trio and even quartet settings. However, I have made a few mods to help in the headroom and warmth area:

First, I replaced the speaker with a Weber California. Good news is it increased my headroom dramatically. Bad news is it added a good 10 or 12 pounds to the overall weight of the amp!

Secondly, I talked to the folks at KCA tubes in Sterling, VA. KCA NOS Tubes. Audio tubes for guitar amplifiers and audiophile equipment. 12AX7, 6L6GC, 12ay7, el34, el84, Fender amplifier,5AR4, 5U4GB, cv4004, 6SN7, 8417, 7027, gz34, Mullard, EF86, 6ca7, 6bq5, 7025, 12at7 | kcanostubes.com |

Told them what I had and that I wanted to increase headroom and warm up the sound as much as possible. Bought a recommended matched set of power and preamp tubes (British NOS I believe)

The result of these two adjustments was amazing. I'm very pleased with the sound. Of the two, the speaker upgrade had the most to do with increasing headroom.

**AlsoRan** · 07-14-2012, 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Chito

DRs usually break up anywhere above 4. I've played in loud rock bands and I've not gone over 4 with my DR. If you feel that above that is not loud enough for you, maybe it's time t0 switch to a Twin. With the Twin you can get as much clean sound as you want and it won't break up until your ears start to bleed.

Thanks, Chito.

You just made me glad that I did not get a Fender Twin. I might have done myself some harm.

I am going to buy a different pre-amp tube like I have done on other amps I own, and hope it works out. I really could not tell much of a difference on the ones I modified.