-
People usually love the Cannabis Rex on the DRRI although I would be careful about too much bass. The Weber California is a clone of the JBL speaker (I think). I've read it's a bright speaker several times.
-
07-14-2012 05:29 PM
-
Mods can basically make the *tone* of an amp closer to what you want but not make it louder, unless said mods consist of adding 4 x 6L6 tubes, proper transformers and 2 x good 12" speakers
In a nutshell, get a much louder amp.
The real problem is not too much the *size* of the venue (you may be playing inside a bathroom) but *who* you play with.
Drummers do not have volume pots and set a reference background "noise" level which is very high.
Old style Jazz drummers played with small kits, often used wirebrushes and such and in general weren't hard hitters, unless playing with a Big Band, but if you play along with a "Rock" type drummer and drum kit, even if he's playing Jazz today, you'll need to match his acoustic level, which I often estimate in equivelent to 50 or 60W.
Now you understand what those 85W Twins or 120W JC120 are bought for.
No need to spend a fortune: an old 80's 2x12" Peavey combo will weight 1/2 what a Twin does, cost little ("nobody" wants them) and will provide 80% of the functionality of a Twin or JC.
And they were built like tanks also.
Or just shop around, in the used section of GC or whatever or local Craigslist, you might be surprised.
Good hunting.
-
An interesting article on the Fender Deluxe Reverb and various mods
Deluxe Reverb fenderguru.com. Fender amps, mods, modifications, vintage, maintenance, tubes, speakers, schematics, blackface, silverface, jens mosbergvik.
-
That site is quite good.
Amazon.com: How to Hot Rod Your Fender Amp: Modifying your Amplifier for Magical Tone (9780760338476): Jeffrey Falla, Aurora Johnson: Books
If you want to get geeky
-
My Weber speaker came in today. I now have to make time set up my recording using my old Boss BR. I am hoping to make time to do my best job, but some recording will be forthcoming, both with the old speaker and the new speaker. I will also take pictures of the inside of the amp to show how to mount it as well as any differences between the stock Jensen and the new Weber.
Patience, my compatriots.
-
Welllll. I promised to get back with you and when I figure out how to upload Mp3s I will record the DRRI with the Weber Speaker.
Here is my verdict:
1) The increase in headroom was minimal if at all. I still start to break up with the volume around 4.5 or so. There was definitely no definitive increase in headroom.
2) The Weber speaker did sound better to my ears than the original Jensen, although I doubt the Jensen was ever "broken in" much less the new Weber.
3) The Weber seems to blunt the high end and have nicer definition of each note. It gave my Sheraton II a little more of an acoustic, warmer sound, in my humble opinion.
Disclaimer: I am no expert, and who knows how much of my opinion is influenced by what I have already read about the speaker substitution. But I was kind of taken aback at much cleaner and more pure the sound seemed to be, especially below the 4.5 position on the volume knob.
I hope this helps somebody.
Now I have to scrape together some money to replace the stock preamp tubes. I am betting this will really help with the headroom, as some of you have suggested.
Take Care.
-
Yep the inputs are different - left is for a single coil guitar and right for a humbucker. Try rolling off a little bass and see if that makes a difference. My DLR is a little on the bassy side so you can get used to too much bass and then when you want to turn it up it gets all muddy.
-
What was the sensitivity of that Weber element compared to the Jensen? A more powerful speaker will do no good. What matters is sensitivity, which should give you more loudness. More than anything else you can do to the amp. A 3 dB more sensitive element equals doubling the watts.
Changing preamp tube won't give you more watts to play with. It's still only 22. Which really isn't much if you want clean headroom. Especially if you like some body/bottom end to your tone.
For a more old school, slightly dirty tone the Deluxe is perfect, but for a thick, clean, dynamic jazz tone the Deluxe will crap out way too early in most settings with a drummer, at least for chords.
-
Yep agree - I have a DLR2 that has the original, rather wimpy, Special Fender Design speaker - probably a Jenson. I will at some point swap this out for better Eminence one from their guitar amp speaker range. Something rather smooth but efficient. If you choose one with the sound profile you are looking for (they do have diagnostic app on the web site to help you choose) and then go for one with as close to 100db sensitivity, you will be amazed at how much louder it will become with the better speaker loaded up. You'll loose some of that speaker break up that the blues boys like, but hey, we didn't want that anyway.
You can also email the guys at Eminence and explain exactly what you are looking for - i.e. warm sounding speaker for jazz guitar in a 22 watt Fender with high sensitivity - and they will suggest some options. Good guys.
-
No, it doesn't work that way. Every 3 decibels in sensitivity requires TEN times the output in wattage. Nature isn't always that kind. So, a doubling of sensitivity from 100db to 103db requires 10 times the wattage, in other words, a 15W amp driving a 103db per watt driver is as loud as a 150W amp driving a 100db per watt loudspeaker watt for watt.
Originally Posted by Runepune
Edit: I did some reading. I am wrong. Double the perceived volume requires 10 times the power because the human ear perceives a 10db change in volume as being "twice" as loud. A 3db gain is a 3db gain which 10^0.3=2. Back to the drawing board.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 10-04-2013 at 04:00 PM.
-
Uhm...no sorry, you are mixing things up. Doubling the wattage results in a 3 dB gain. Ten times the wattage gives you a 10 dB increase....which happens to be what people perceive as twice as loud. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
10*log(30/15) = 3
10*log(150/15) = 10
And to add to it, doubling sound pressure results in a 6 dB gain
-
Spme of the above posts don't sound quite right - I did an Open University course on music Technology, and some of that is on the right lines but you'll have to bare with me whilst I go back to the source literature to check it all out. This whole decibel thing kicks in all sorts of interesting stuff that is also frequency sensitive as well. e.g. as you go down the frequencies into the Bass guitar range - although it is tuned an octave lower the gap between bass and guitar is typically two octaves because guitarists play up the neck. Because the human ear is more sensitive to the guitar frequencies, every octave down needs a doubling up in power to soud the same - so 2x for one ocatve and 4x for two - hence the bass player using a 100 watt amp and the guitarist is on a 25 and the cymbal isn't amped up at all.
I'll check out the sensitivity thing v power and let you know later.
-
This link explains it: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-levelchange.htm .
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 10-05-2013 at 11:57 AM.
-
Yeah, the dB relations often get mixed up between power, pressure, perceived loudness etc. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
When you calculate dB with power/wattage the equation is 10*log(P2/P1). P1 being the reference power and P2 the power in question. E.g. 100 watts vs 50 watts: 10*log(100/50) = +3 dB.
When you're working with e.g. sound pressure and voltage the equation is 20*log(P2/P1). So a doubling of sound pressure results in +6 dB. (And doubling of distance [from a point source, e.g. speaker] means a 6 dB loss [inverse square law].)
Then comes the perceived loudness, which is nothing mathematical. It's just how humans perceive sound, and +10 dB feels like twice as loud. Whether it's from neurological or physiological reasons, or a mix of both, I dunno
-
I'm not surprised at any of this. In my experience, tricks like adjusting pickups, swapping out tubes and changing speakers have a negligible effect on headroom. Your real problem is simply that the amp is grossly underpowered for what you want to do. You can't tow a 30 foot boat with a Honda Fit, and new spark plugs won't help. The good news is that you won't have any trouble selling the Deluxe Reverb. They're popular amps. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
So many guys get on here and ask what's the best amp for jazz. I always ask how they want to use it. A Deluxe Reverb is a beautiful amp, but it won't stand up to aggressive drummers. You want at least 50-60 watts, and more is better. A Twin Reverb is a good choice, IF you're man enough to schlep it around. I know I'm not, but there are a number of 100 watt+ solid state amps that sound great for jazz and are nice and light.
I suggest you try a few of them out. Good luck with your amp search.
-
I've had a Fender Deluxe Reverb for many, many years, I changed the output and input transformers to 40watt, the speaker to a Celestion 50Watt and have 6L6 valves, this gives a lot of headroom, it's like a small twin.
-
When it is all said and done, I think you summed it up. Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
Now, since so many people recommended the amp for Jazz, I am wondering if I need to learn to play with the amp's volume not quite so loud.
I guess my problem is that coming from a Blues / Hard Rock background, I like to "feel" the sound waves a little too much.
-
I'll do the maths stuff when I get the Uni stuff out for the drawers. Anyway, you make an interesting point about what is loud and how we hear it. I don't know how many times I have had students who say they have problems, or are told they are a problem, when playing with other musicians. It's usually about being loud in the 'wrong' way.
Of you listen to what recording engineers do to your band you'll notice how clear it all seems compared to what it might sound like live. This has a lot to do with layering the frequences on each instrument - separating them by their dominant frequencies in the mix. Now we can borrow that idea to help us fit right into our slot in the sound of a band and increase our volume if needed.
One of the errors guitar players can make is - that in their practice room (or bedroom) they happily play away on their own, usually choosing a mellow tone with plenty of bass to fill it out. Sounds nice solo - full and round at low volume. Trouble is when you put this into a band your frequences run into everyone else's 'territory'. So you can afford to cut back the bass quite a lot and stop treading on the toes of the bass player and be a little more treble than you would have been in the bedroom to take you away from the piano player. This has a huge effect on how high you can amp up without getting distortion. That bassy round tone is a killer on both the amp and speaker. Sounds great solo, but isn't really a great tone for band work. Its about getting more mids into your sound - I don't mean slicing the audience with lazer beam treble!
Interestingly, my DLR has a couple of pull knobs to add highs to the clean channel and mids to the lead channel - so its almost as simple as a click/pull to change it.
BTW. With regards the Deluxe Reverb - If you have a humbucker loaded guitar, the right jack socket is the one you want to be using for high output PUs. The left one is for your Strat and Tele. The two input sockets are not the same impedience.
-
Good point, Chris. I always end up rolling off some bass when I take the amp from the practice room to the stage. The full, dark classic jazz tone can be hard to achieve at higher volume with a big, aggressive ensemble. You need a lot of wattage to pull that off, and feedback can be a problem. Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
Nevertheless, I think you need as much power as you need. Maybe you can get used to playing quieter, but there are times when you just need to be out front in the mix. You can't really have too much power, but you can certainly have too little. It isn't about being loud; it's about being clean at the volume you need to be at. That's why companies like Acoustic Image make 400 watt amps. You'll never play that loud, but it sure is nice to have the headroom.
Still, I think I'd keep the Deluxe Reverb if I could afford that plus another amp. It's a sweet amp for low power situations.
-
When I get a moment, I am going to A/B the '65 DRRI with the Fender Jazzmaster Ultralight Amp, not for tone ( I just don't have much time) but to see which is louder while remaining clean.
Please forgive my choice of rug. I did not realize at the time that you don't really want to match the rug to the carpet because they just blend together and there is no "pop" of color.
Last edited by AlsoRan; 10-05-2013 at 04:58 PM. Reason: smiley
-
22 watts vs. 250 watts? I'm betting that the Jazzmaster Ultralight is much cleaner at higher volumes.
-
You are so right again. Originally Posted by Jonathan0996
I thought maybe the tube wattage could match the solid state, but it was no match.
-
I've haven't tried one, but I've heard good things about the Jazz Ultralight.
People get the impression that tube amps are louder than solid state watt for watt, but I don't think that's true. Tube amps have the advantage of sounding better when they're pushed hard because the quality of distortion is so much more pleasant. What you get is more useful volume out of a tube amp vs. a solid state amp of the same wattage. The actual volume difference is probably slight.
I'm glad you found something that works for you.Last edited by Jonathan0996; 10-05-2013 at 08:51 PM.
-
I thin Fender was a little generous on the watts (used a not so clean % of THD apparently) so the JMUL is not exactly 250w but it's still much louder than a DR. And if played with the same cab the difference would be even more evident... the JMUL is a great "fender tone in a small package" amp, it's warmer than a lot of RIs to me.
-
This is an informative thread, but essentially...
-Not many Fender players choose a DR(RI) for loud clean
-Not many Fender players would pass up a DR(RI) for bluesy stuff
-Loud clean Fender players love Twins...so do their chiropracters.
-Super Reverbs are pretty cool too...not as many chiropracters recommend them as they do Twins, but more SUV and truck salesman do.
All sweet amps...fun "problem" to solve.
Note: I have a pretty heavily modded DRRI w/ more headroom and a WGS ET65...I love it to pieces, but I miss my Super Reverb and...thinking about trading. I'm sure if I do...I will miss my DRRI within a month. So it goes.
Reply With Quote
What's happening at the end of this song?
Today, 07:55 PM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading