Benedetto Guild X-700 or Campellone Special?

[SierraTango]

Just sell everything and go for this. 12K asking and even though I haven't played this specific instrument, I would bet you would never have GAS again. My Cremona cured me! So look at all the money I saved in the long run

[2bornot2bop]

But, it's just a sign of the depressed arch top market along with the lack of market appeal for Guild arch tops, for reasons I just can't figure out, that prevented that beauty from selling in the high $4k to mid $5k price range.

I've always disagreed with the market causing the failure of a guitars price to be driven. It's PRESENTATION, or rather, the lack of a proper photo presentation on many guitars listed for sale. Give 'em the gas, and you'll motivate someone to reach for their wallet. You only need to motivate one person with a 'that guitar is killing me' moment.

Besides, no one is more DEPRESSED and yet buys more archtop in this market than 2b.

[Cunamara]

How do you factor the Johnny Smith into your arch top history recounting?

Well, I have no idea how accurate my recounting is. It's heavily generalized as has been pointed out, which always invites exceptions and contradictions. Gibson, Epiphone, Stromberg, D'Angelico, etc., all had particular ideas about how their instruments should sound in the 40s and 50s- for whatever reason the Gibson sound came to dominate. After that the field seems to have narrowed quite a bit and tended to remain confined to that pattern, perhaps as solidbody guitars came in. D'Aquisto was a primary mover in changing the approach to and sound of archtop guitars and even he had to go slowly to have acceptance in the market- most people who came to him still wanted the D'Angelico New Yorker style of instrument. D'Aquisto inspired and/or mentored a lot of the luthiers that have carried on the changes in how archtops sound like Monteleone, Manzer, etc. I was just listening a few minutes ago to Anthony Wilson's four seasons piece with Steve Cardenas, Chico Pinheiro and Julian Lage playing four Monteleones recorded acoustically; the sound is spectacular and much different to my ears than guitars from the 30s, 40s, 50s, etc.

As for the Johnny Smith, it was pretty firmly in the D'Angelico camp as the design preferences came from his experiences with D'Angelico guitars. The way the neck fit into the end block rather than a tongue floating over the top, as with most archtop designs, was JS's idea as I understand it. As far as I can tell, however, he rarely recorded with the Gibson- in various interviews it seems that he usually recorded with the D'Angelico. I have played three Gibson JSes, two one pickup models and one two pickup model. In each case the acoustic voice was not very strong- a bit quiet and tinny- and not as acoustically lively as my Benedetto-influenced Matt Cushman 17" archtop. OTOH they were much more resistant to feedback than the Cushman, which requires attentive handling when amplified to not turn into a banshee. Since JS played amplified, that makes sense. He also had very particular thoughts about amplification, tone stacks and amp voicing for archtops guitars. JS was a very precise thinker about many things, it seems. Ultimately I think the JS ended up being something of a bird in its own right; it was different than what came before it and has had few offspring- I think the Ibanez GB10 is one of them (not a surprise since George Benson used a JS a lot).

If there was a prior archtop with a floater affixed to the end of the fretboard a la the JS, I am not aware of it; it's been used on some other instruments like the GB10, the Howard Roberts and among boutique builders Ziedler and Moriarty. IIRC there were Gibsons with the pickup built into the pickguard in the early P90 days and that has become something of a standard for modern boutique achtops. I don't know if this is worth anything but I think that securing the pickup to the end of the neck sounds better than mounting it on the pickguard- with the more solid mounting on the fretboard/neck I think the sound is warmer and thicker. However, pickguard mounting seems to be the standard for floating pickups among boutique luthiers, except for routed-in mounting.

[HeyNow]

Great history lesson. Thanks Cunamara. I'm no expert, but it seems D'Angelico's from the 40s had the DeArmond pickups attached to the end of the fretboard.

Here is a '47 with records of original sale including a DeArmond pickup:

D'Angelico (used, 1947) "Small" New Yorker Cutaway - Mandolin Brothers, Ltd.

It's a little hard to tell, but I think I can see the mounting holes on the side of the neck:

http://mandoweb.com/Images/Instrumen...lery/57779.jpg

and there's the bracket:

http://mandoweb.com/Images/Instrumen...lery/57813.jpg

another '47 with that bracket:

Later ones, as you know, had two brackets (maybe that's what you're referring to in reference to JS).

Check out this beast:

Guild JOHNNY SMITH AWARD 1958 Sunburst Guitar For Sale Classic Rock Guitars

[HeyNow]

(that last link was just a random guitar I found - not really part of the discussion)

[fumblefingers]

I believe it may have been Michael Greenfield that said "we're all making Johnny Smith's now". Seems to me that D'Aquisto and Benedetto started making 17x3, 25" scale, larger headstock, floating pickup models as their primary focus as early as the 70s. In other words, Johnny Smiths.

[teleman3726]

I think he's a flat top guitar luthier. On the GE . . the bound volute on thje back of the head stock and the notation of the tap tuning on the label tell me that Aaron hand his hands on this one. To my knowledge, there's not another Heritage archie in the world with a bound volute. I tried to get Marv to do a volute on my newest SGE. It wasn't even open to discussion. So, I'm pretty sure Aaron did it. The seller really doesn't seem to be to knowledgeable on guitars. He and I exchanged a couple of messages. I certainly don't need this guitar. But, I'm intrigued by it.

My wife and I are going on a road trip next week. I've got a major trade show in Orlando. Fran (my wife) has never been to either Charlston, SC or Savannah, GA. So, whether or not I win the bid, we'll be in Savannah on Sunday evening. Timing just might work out real good on this one.

Patrick
If you're in Charleston, drop me a line.
Chris

[Cunamara]

I believe it may have been Michael Greenfield that said "we're all making Johnny Smith's now". Seems to me that D'Aquisto and Benedetto started making 17x3, 25" scale, larger headstock, floating pickup models as their primary focus as early as the 70s. In other words, Johnny Smiths.

Michael Greenfield is unknown to me, you will have to pardon my ignorance. I think the similarities are fairly superficial. I don't really know if that statement is true or false. I disagree with it but this is princess and the pea stuff here and I'm not a luthier.

I think that D'Aquisto and Smith had some parallel things going on, since they both come from the same rootstock: D'Angelico. However, their goals were different in that the Gibson JS did not emphasize the acoustic sound of the instrument as it was intended to be amplified. At least to my observation of the three Gibson JSes I have played, the top is thicker to reduce feedback at the expense of the acoustic tone. D'Aquisto and Benedetto did not follow the JS on this.

The floating pickup is tempting to see as a precursor and maybe even as the defining trait, but those existed before the JS (but I don't know if the U-mounted pickup was done prior to JS or, for that matter, the floating mini-humbucker. Maybe someone else knows). Benedetto preferentially mounted the pickup on the pickguard, also an idea that predated the JS by quite some time. D'Aquisto and Benedetto both built acoustic archtops with no pickups and seem to have preferred to do so; even though I play an archtop with a floater, it always seems to me that amplification is an afterthought with these guitars. A good electric sound is hard to get with these. I also think- with little evidence to back me up- that the U-mounted pickup a la JS sounds better than the same pickup mounted on the pickguard would sound; I fabricated a U-mount for my archtop and like the sound much better, but the pickups are not exactly alike (I had an Armstrong floating mounted on the pickguard and created my own U-mount floater out of a Classic 57 to replace it; the latter sounds much better on this guitar).

The JS fingerboard is not suspended over the body like most archtop guitars. Instead it is on the top with, as I understand it, a longer end block underneath it to increase sustain. D'Aquisto and Benedetto did not follow this either. This is one of the unique characteristics of the JS design. Another is that the top is carved and then the cutaway is made, resulting in a large piece of binding to cover the gap between the side and top. Smith was very particular about this and it's one of the reasons he rescinded his first endorsement with Guild. He wanted it done that way because that was how D'Angelico did it. Bob Benedetto finally changed Johnny's mind about that, as I understand it.

All three JSes I have played are superbly playable- the 1 3/4 nut and the profile of the neck made them very nice indeed; I find 1 5/8 and 1 11/16 nuts cramped and rather difficult (and both of my archtops have 1 11/16 nuts; my Tele with a 1 3/4 is so much more comfortable and I get cleaner chords below the 5th fret). Smith had medium sized hands; per interviews I found around the Web, he came up with the 25" scale as a compromise- he wanted a longer scale because of his preference for tuning the low string to D rather than E but because of his preferred chord shapes he couldn't go to a 25 1/2" scale and still reach all the notes. This was especially true after he took 1/4" off the tip of one of his fingers in an accident. He also had a particular set of strings that he specified. I think Benedetto uses the 25" scale length and I frankly don't know about D'Aquisto.

So, I could be completely out to lunch. It's fascinating stuff to think about, though.