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I think this is unfair. If taken at face value, it means one could only express an opinion about a guitar one has owned. But guitar players decide NOT to buy certain guitars and they have their reasons for that too. (Too heavy, too small, poor tone, hate the way it looks, too shallow a cutaway, neck's too big, just can't get comfortable with it, and so on.)
Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Jabberwocky always denigrates Guild Benedettos, but he has never owned a Guild Benedetto. I've owned older Guilds and Guild Benedettos, both are good quality guitars.
I find it's best to ignore Jabberwocky's comments about Guild Benedettos.
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10-30-2014 09:45 AM
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Okay, let me do the math. 1/16" over 20 frets is 1/64" every 5 frets. I can understand being less comfortable going from 24 3/4 to 25 1/2, but even on a 24 3/4 board there aren't many that spend much time and effort spanning 5 frets on their chords. Perhaps Tal Farlow, but he had freakishly big hands (nice problem to have with the guitar). I can't imagine 1/16" would be noticeable, but maybe my imagination is lacking.
As for my vote, Guild all the way! But I am very biased being that I prefer Guilds in general. Particularly being a Benedetto model, it will hold its value, it is relatively hard to find in that configuration, and to me Guilds just play and sound great! I almost had me a single pup X-700 Benedetto in a claret finish a few years ago, of which I was told only two were made. I had contacted the shop in California that was selling it and had arranged to have someone get a deposit to them first thing the next morning. I called back later that day (about 2 hours later to confirm that the deal was set, and I was informed that the phone rang off the hook about that guitar after my call, and they sold it to a guy that was able to get to the shop that afternoon in person. To say I was really ticked off is putting it mildly. It has been about two years since then, and I'm still angry.
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the special is my recommendation - especially in good condition under 5k
i just got my first campellone 17 with floater and it is like being taken back in time to 1956 - incredible sound - more gibson than any gibson i've heard/played
wonderfully honest workmanship too (flawless and under priced)
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Them's the breaks.
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I have both guitars and really enjoy playing them both. The Campelone Special is flawless and a joy to play. I did need to lower the action and bridge to suit my playing style. It's got a beautiful acoustic tone. I did upgrade the supplied KA pickup to a Lollar Johnny Smith, which was required and an unqualified improvement. That said, there is a certain magic playing the Guild Benedetto. Mine is a blonde, single pickup, 2002 Westerly Guild Benedetto. It is a very rare and special guitar, and when I saw it for sale I jumped on it and not sorry I did. I feel very lucky to have it and will never sell it.
What might not be readily apparent, is that the Guild Benedetto is extremely comfortable to play. One needs to note that the body thickness is 3 inches, which is just that much more comfortable to hold and play. It also contributes to a certain feeling of lightness. The scale length on the guitar of 25 9/16 is not an issue compared to 25 1/2 inches. The original Benedetto pickup is just ok. You will never realize the amplified potential of the guitar until you upgrade the pickup(s). The Benedetto A6 pickups are just ok, nothing special. It's when you put the best pickups you can find, which for me was the Kinman Extra Vintage humbucking pickup, that the guitar really opens up to reveal it's potential and finally does justice to the guitar.
Robert
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Rather. Originally Posted by snoskier63
Okay, let me do the math. 1/16" over 20 frets is 1/64" every 5 frets. I can understand being less comfortable going from 24 3/4 to 25 1/2, but even on a 24 3/4 board there aren't many that spend much time and effort spanning 5 frets on their chords. Perhaps Tal Farlow, but he had freakishly big hands (nice problem to have with the guitar). I can't imagine 1/16" would be noticeable, but maybe my imagination is lacking.
... You forget the increased fretting effort that comes with an increased scale length. Oh, bobbins. What's a few more pounds of force? Over an hour, rather a lot. Sorry, I don't use 11s or 10s.
Also, how much increment is too much? 1/16" increment does not sound like much. OK, let's add another 1/16" to that. And another. And another. There comes a point beyond which one's fingers say, No Mas. And for me and me alone, that point comes at 25.5".
The OP asks for an opnion. And I gave my opnion. If you don't like opinions don't ask for them. I don't get the handbags at dawn.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 10-30-2014 at 01:46 PM.
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not sure how much a diff 1/16" would feel in scale length, but I'd sure notice it @ the nut.....
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very interesting to hear those words about the lollar js pickup - i'm really liking the KA mini hum bucker - but i was certainly wondering about getting hold of the lollar to see if it was an improvement... Originally Posted by Robert56RI
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Even if the Guild Benedetto was not all that rare, it is definitely a keeper. It may be rare, but that's not why it's a great guitar. Benedetto knew what he was doing. Just on the sound and playability alone, one would not want to part with the guitar. And Benedetto's decision to employ a European spruce top is not lost on this guitar. But again, the pickups need to be upgraded on this guitar if you ever want to really hear what it can do, which may be the reason it could be passed over by some people. It's a bit of a sleeper in that regard.
In addition, I think the guitar simply looks incredibly beautiful, which is also one of the reasons I bought a natural finish Campellone Special. I love the Guild's gold, engraved harp tailpiece!
I have a friend who has two GB's along with his blonde '68 Gibson L-5 (gorgeous!), which he has always loved and still does. He seems to be playing the Guilds every bit as much as his L-5 these days and can't say enough good things about them. He also upgraded his Benedetto pickups, though.
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If I recall correctly, I stated that it had the finest to of any I've ever owned . . . and was as good as any I'd ever heard . . . subject to personal taste of course. If I said *the best* of any I'd ever heard or played . . than I was over exuberant due to my fond memories of its tone. But, I maintain that I've never heard better . . from any guitar played by anyone. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I played two Benedetto Manhattans, on separate occasions, at Mando Bros. The tone on each was as good as that of my GBJSA. However, the Manhattans offered a more rapid response. The notes almost seemed to jump out at me even before I got through the pick stroke .. lolol. But, there was an erie similarity in the warmth, depth and complexity of the tone. The one I picked up for Mark . . the honey blond . . fell just short of what I experienced from my own opulent brown . . but, only by the proverbial hair. It to was tone off the charts and to die for. Bob's influence on Guild's arch tops is very evident. But, that's not to say that the Guild arch tops had anything less than great tone prior to his refinements.
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Originally Posted by Patrick2
I think as well and its probably too obvious for me to point out, that some of the finesse of these high end archtops seems to take you further away from where you wanted to be. A slightly dulled l5 is what we all fell in love with.
Our endeavour to buy guitars that are of finer quality doest mean we get a guitar that we like the sound of more. Its different and of course subjectively better.
My X-700 is quite dead in ways. the top is warranty avoidance thick and the guitar isn't that light. Yet plug it in, tune up and lush out all the way to smokes ville and I wouldn't have it any other way.
If Beny had done anything to take me away from that, then his input is of no value to me, nor is it and advancement of what is maybe by default/accident the perfect sounding bop guitar.
I do understand though that these 'modern' archtops aren't necessarily for the same purpose and in fact, the advent of them has given way to a whole knew more nuanced type of modern jazz (imo)Last edited by Archie; 10-30-2014 at 04:39 PM.
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One thing to consider is that Bob typically x-braces his instruments and Mark uses parallel bracing. They are designed to achieve different sonic goals acoustically.
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I've never played a GBJSA, although I would think there must be a strong family resemblance to the GB X-700 Stuart. I can tell you that my GB X-700, which I use as much as an electric, acoustically is a warm, very involving, well balanced guitar with great harmonic structure to the notes. It seems to have a subtle, nice, fat compression on the initial attack of the notes, which works really well when playing electrically. I don't think it's as loud or possibly as forward as my Campellone, but simply a well balanced, more intimate tone. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I think some of the problem with the perception of the Guild Benedetto X-700 Stuarts when they first came on the market, is that electric archtop players might have passed over these Guilds, thinking they are just over-priced Guilds. Big mistake. That thinking, incredibly, still persists today. Well, these are Benedetto Guild's- a different animal- with carved tops and backs, the top with European spruce, no less. I don't think a lot of players at the time got it. That's why after a few years, sad to say, Fender and Benedetto had to pull the plug on these. Really, at the time, they were INCREDIBLE bargains, but most players were probably thinking "Hey, why pay that much for a Guild?", ignoring for the most part Benedetto's design and oversight. What they should have been thinking is "Wow, what an absolute steal on a Benedetto archtop!"
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That was my point :-) Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
I obviously didn't make it very well
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[QUOTE=Robert56RI;472093]I've never played a GBJSA, although I would think there must be a strong family resemblance to the GB X-700 Stuart. I can tell you that my GB X-700, which I use as much as an electric, acoustically is a warm, very involving, well balanced guitar with great harmonic structure to the notes. It seems to have a subtle, nice, fat compression on the initial attack of the notes, which works really well when playing electrically. I don't think it's as loud or possibly as forward as my Campellone, but simply a well balanced, more intimate tone.
I think some of the problem with the perception of the Guild Benedetto X-700 Stuarts when they first came on the market, is that electric archtop players might have passed over these Guilds, thinking they are just over-priced Guilds. Big mistake. That thinking, incredibly, still persists today. Well, these are Benedetto Guild's- a different animal- with carved tops and backs, the top with European spruce, no less. I don't think a lot of players at the time got it. That's why after a few years, sad to say, Fender and Benedetto had to pull the plug on these. Really, at the time, they were INCREDIBLE bargains, but most players were probably thinking "Hey, why pay that much for a Guild?", ignoring for the most part Benedetto's design and oversight.
Yep! That says it all. It's a Benedetto arch top. Bob took the design concepts of some truly great arch tops . . and improved upon those design concepts to make great guitars even greater.What they should have been thinking is "Wow, what an absolute steal on a Benedetto archtop!"
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I'm probably committing a thread hijack here and should probably start another thread... Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
That's an interesting point. Archtops post-Benedetto seem to have different tonal considerations than the classic archtops as developed by Loar and with the archtops of the 50s. The early archtops were designed to be loud, cutting and to project through a big band with bodies enlarging to 18" wide and 4" thick in some cases. Dick McDonough, Carl Kress, early Van Eps, etc.
In the late 40s to late 50's and the rise of bebop, small group jazz/chamber jazz, tonal considerations were again different and designing with installed pickups in mind (e.g., the ES-150, ES-350, ES-175, etc.) aimed at the bebop and then cool sounds came to the forefront. Farlow, Raney, Wayne, Hall, Lowe, etc.
Somewhere along the line- I think the pivot point was D'Aquisto re-imagining the acoustic qualities of the instruments in his last few years, in which he was trying to bring in some of the flat-top bass string qualities to the traditionally mids-oriented archtop sound- things shifted again for the archtop tone. Having more of an acoustic quality even though through a pickup and the carvetop with floater made a return. Benedetto was perhaps the best at raising consciousness of this and marketing it. Julian Lage, Peter Bernstein, etc., have more acoustic sparkle on their sounds than the generation before them. It's a very different sound in many ways.
So, do changes in archtop design push players to new kinds of sounds- e.g., that "more nuanced" thing that ArchtopHeaven mentions- or is it that changing tastes among jazz guitarists put selection pressure on luthiers? Or is it driven by changes in amplification, speaker/cabinet design, etc.?
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Wow I managed to successfully articulate something. What your getting into is the chicken and egg scenario and I personally believe its the chicken (that being the builders). Originally Posted by Cunamara
Why? well they are the ones who seek to constantly improve the tone and design of something (although players do too like JS) but I think the builders were the ones, that thought about the subtle acoustic properties being more interesting to them, than say the players. A designer always wants to improve on design, braces, woods etc. I think those things are a little beyond what most players get too involved in. Of course I could be wrong and perhaps like all things, it could just be an evolution between the two (which of course is the real answer, to the chicken and egg question).
Im glad you mentioned the artists that were in my mind, whilst I was writing that comment and I'm glad these new 'modern' archtops, are allowing for a new path in jazz that, that I believe wouldn't have been on offer prior to their appearance.
As musicians we take inspiration for the tools around us. Lock me in a room with a hammer and a piece of wood and I will give you a battered piece of wood. The next day, give me a saw and a piece of wood and I will give you two pieces of wood back.
I never claimed to be a GOOD artist, OK
Last edited by Archie; 10-30-2014 at 09:32 PM.
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Indeed. It is felt. I HAVE gone to 11s. My hands are not small and my fingers are not short. I'm ex-football, ex martial arts, still lift weights etc. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Rather. You forget the increased fretting effort that comes with an increased scale length. Oh, bobbins. What's a few more pounds of force? Over an hour, rather a lot. Sorry, I don't use 11s or 10s.
Also, how much increment is too much? 1/16" increment does not sound like much. OK, let's add another 1/16" to that. And another. And another. There comes a point beyond which one's fingers say, No Mas. And for me and me alone, that point comes at 25.5".
The OP asks for an opnion. And I gave my opnion. If you don't like opinions don't ask for them. I don't get the handbags at dawn.
I love my GB JSA. It sounds like no other guitar that I know of. It's a trade off, tremendous tone/overtones vs. easy feel.
im not complaining about the guitar, just validating your take on this.Last edited by fumblefingers; 10-30-2014 at 10:16 PM.
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How do you factor the Johnny Smith into your arch top history recounting? Originally Posted by Cunamara
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Quite a bit of food for though in your post. But, I think you might be overly generalizing and over estimating what you perceive to be the more recent change. As it relates to your comments on D'Aquisto and Benedetto, their primary focus was always the acoustic arch top . . and not the inset pup electric arch top. Their quest for further refinement of those guitars was only to take their passion for the acoustic arch tops to ne next level . . and they have. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Regarding big band and the 18" D'As and 19" Strombergs to cut through the mix . . players just don't go that route anymore. They more often than not go with semis or solid bodies with amplification. The smaller venue bop players seem to be still going with the thicker top inset pup parallel braced arch tops. I see change in the design too. But, I mainly see it as further refinement of existing concepts . . on existing designs . . intended for the same venues.
Manufactures such as Gibson, Guild, Heritage, Eastman, Peerless, Godin, Yamaha, Ibanez . . etc., they're all still making guitars across the full gamut of venue applications. Boutique builders know they can't compete in price on these type guitars, so their primary focus is on the nitch market of acoustic arch top players and collectors. Each of those two segmants of guitar builders seek to refine products for their targeted markets. I don't see them trying to change the markets, or the players. Nor do I see players driving the builders . . manufacturers or boutique . . to different styles of guitars. Boutique builders have traditionally failed miserably when trying to garner interest in any of their less expensive inset pup (or dual pup) guitars.
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By the way, has anyone noticed that the Guild Benedetto Stuart X-700 on eBay has just sold for a mere $3,900? That's a bargain. I don't think you are going to find that kind of deal come along again anytime soon.
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2b forecast that guitar would not exceed $4k...just sayin. Originally Posted by Robert56RI
By the way, has anyone noticed that the Guild Benedetto Stuart X-700 on eBay has just sold for a mere $3,900? That's a bargain. I don't think you are going to find that kind of deal come along again anytime soon.
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Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
So are you the new owner and yes you did claim $4,000 I can vouch for that.
Good call
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No, the buyer wasn't me. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
A few days ago I bought a signed GBJSA...prior to that GBJSA making itself available, just days ago, I was prepared to bid up to $4k for this GB X-700.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 11-04-2014 at 11:18 PM.
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OK? So whadda ya want a "winkie button" now for being right? Damn sailors are always braggin'. ;-) Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
But, it's just a sign of the depressed arch top market along with the lack of market appeal for Guild arch tops, for reasons I just can't figure out, that prevented that beauty from selling in the high $4k to mid $5k price range. That X700 is every bit the guitar it's Gibson counter part, the Wesmo is . . possibly even more so . . and the Wesmos are bringing 50% more in resale. If it weren't for market dollar value . . I'd swap my Wesmo even up for that X700 in a New York minute. Makes me sorry I didn't get into the bidding on this X700 instead of still yet another GE.
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