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Hi. I play in a Jazz quintet playing gigs at large festivals and fetes. Not as grand as it sounds, just open air village fetes etc. Anyway, at present I am using a Les Paul but want to switch to an archtop. I think that the Ibanez artcore range seem to offer good value. Was just wondering about what kind of top to go for? I play pretty large venues so I have to go through a hundred watt fender ss amp to get the required volume, or sometimes I mic up and go through the PA. This of coarse provides issues for feedback. Would this mean a fully laminate guitar would be preferable over say a solid spruce or maple top? For an extra hundred there is a very nice one pickup Ibanez with a spruce top I like the look of, but would this cause greater feedback issues? Thanks.
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10-04-2014 03:53 AM
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A laminate will resist feedback better than a solid top, but using a hundred watts feedback could be an issue with an archtop whatever top it has. If feedback is a problem you can cover the sound holes with tape or something like cling film, some people have plugs made for the sound holes or fill the guitar with foam, I personally hate that idea. I personally prefer laminate tops unless it is an accoustic. I have just taken delivery of a very nice Ibanez AF200 with a laminate spruce top, I've been waiting 6 months for it, I can now retire my old Gibson ES175.
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If you get an Ibanez, it will be laminate whether the top veneer is spruce, maple or anything else. And the laminate spruce tops they've made tend to be on their higher end, good sound, good feel and resistance to feedback. I have a spruce laminate JP20 single pickup, and it's got a nice acoustic sound but also very tame and friendly plugged in too. I'll also add that I have an early PM10, I think it is, the Pat Metheny that's like the JP20 but with a maple veneer on the top rather than a spruce. Both have good performance at high volume amplified; both will feedback if REALLY pushed (even Pat had to watch that) and their acoustic tone is different-(different bridges and neck material too,) they are both instruments I'd recommend for professional amplified use. The artcore is good quality. Well made.
DavidLast edited by TH; 10-04-2014 at 08:40 AM.
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High,
I would go for a laminate maple. I find the tone will hold its shape better at volumes. Spruce is nice but maple will be much less hassle and probably have the better note separation/clarity.
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Thanks guys. I'm particularly interested in the cheaper George Benson model. The LGB 30. It looks good value on paper and comes with a hardcase for about 700 pounds. But am I simply paying for the Benson name?
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....Just curious - laminated spruce vs laminated maple - - or laminated hickory or laminated bubinga or laminated cherry ?...once it's laminated, what difference in sound would it really make ?
I agree completely with the statement that laminating a top helps w/ feedback, but it seems to me once you start talking glue and backing material, the type of veneer won't help you much with sound.
I'd be interested to hear if there's a definitive answer to this.
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@tdearn, I've played an LGB30 I thought it was an excellent guitar, top of the range Chinese made with a laminated spruce top, 20 fret 24 3/4" scale, pickups are similar to 57's but a bit brighter, seem to have more clarity in the lower registers but that might be me. The AF151/155's are a nice guitar laminated flame maple top back and sides I have an AF151 with a classic '57 in, I have a Lollar CC humbucker size pickup on the way which I intend to replace the '57 with.
@Dennis D I have both laminated spruce and laminated maple guitars and IMO they sound different but not everyones hearing is the same. Archtop is an Ibanez fan and knowledgeable on them so he might be able to better answer your questions. This one arrived yesterday after 6 months waiting.
Last edited by Para; 10-04-2014 at 11:41 AM.
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No definitive answer because there are too many other factors that influence the sound- plugged in, the pickup more than the guitar and in all cases the guitarist more than the guitar. There are going to be differences from one guitar to the next even within identical models. In terms of laminates there are differences no only in the veneers but also the core wood; conceivably there could be some differences there. Gibson used maple veneers and a poplar core on the ES-175. There are some folks experimenting with wood veneers and a Nomex core, called double tops. Somewhere online is a video of an Andersen double top being played briefly by Bill Frissell.
Originally Posted by Dennis D
Bob Benedetto built an archtop guitar from knotty pine lumber-grade wood. It sounded like a Benedetto, not different from one of his guitars built with premium wood. We guitarists tend to fetishize certain specific components with beliefs about their effects on tone, rather than seeing the guitar as a whole entity. Heck, I have noticed many times that on recordings at gigs it is hard to tell my carvetop/floater from my Tele once the bass, drums and horns are also playing. I can tell my nylon string from the steel string guitars, but other than that I just sound like me no matter what guitar I am playing. I feel like I play differently on different guitars but I don't know that anyone else would notice.
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Well actually the difference between spruce laminates themselves and how they respond, given the thickness and body type etc.. is enough to dispel any idea, that there is no difference between tops.
In general, I have found through 7 years of College and university playing, where I often performed in small loud rooms, maple was the easiest and most stable sound I could get.
Its more glassy than spruce and the bass and trebles often sound a little more rounded and firm. Getting a guitar with a longer scale length will also do this. Maple on guitars at that price point and especially size (if we're talking 16") will also sound a little warmer than spruce, which can often be very bright and cold sounding.
I'm not saying spruce doesn't offer you the ultimate experience and there are many excellent little cheap 16" spruce Archtops out there but laminate maple, will be the easiest and most rewarding, with the least stress IMO.
I do like the new GB30, haven't had a chance to try one. Your not paying for the GB name, if anything the opposite. IMO they are pushing the spec levels and enticing you in, with the name. Its them basically saying "Yeh its £700 its got an ebony fretboard a high level of finish, nice woods and you can tell its a quality product because we've put GB's name on it".
Although I'de love to know how thick that ebony fingerboard is ;-)
I do know one sold on ebayUk for about £550 so they hold their money incredibly well. I'm waiting to snag a used one. I'm sure they are very good.Last edited by Archie; 10-04-2014 at 01:48 PM.
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Ive got the baby brother to that, the Ibanez Af-120. It looks like they have upgraded the fretboard to ebony, and the tuners but they've done away with the Gibson style pick-gaurd mount :-( Originally Posted by Para
Still if its a better version of the Korean one, which it surely will be, then that will be one highly playable Archtop. I'm talking one of the best currently on the market. For all its faults, my AF-120 has almost unsurpassed playability. Very tight, very responsive and surprisingly deep in tone for the body size. In fact
I wil let you into a little secret, thats basically a two pick-up'd JP-20 'Joe Pass' with the neck pup in the preferred place. The Jp-20 imo, is one of the best little archtops Ibanez ever produced and it looks like they just improved it :-))
I want one!
Last edited by Archie; 10-04-2014 at 02:08 PM.
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For what it's worth, here's my brief thesis on plywood archtops...
There are four basic categories with some examples:
Heavy (thick top) Maple
(many Ibanez guitars; modern Gibsons)
Light (thin top) Maple
(40s-50s P-90 Gibsons ES-125, 150, 175; Sadowsky; several "boutique" buiders Borys, Holst, Manzer; Godin 5th ave)
Heavy Spruce
(some Ibanez guitars, Epiphone Joe Pass)
Light Spruce
(Benedetto Bravo, Moll Pizzarelli, Unger/Martin CF1)
The heavy maple/light maple guitars will have a brighter, clearer more defined/fundamental tone than spruce. The heavy maple guitar will be less likely to feedback at higher volumes but will have a weak acoustic voice. The light maple guitars will have the same clear voice but will have some acoustic component to the tone....at the expense of potential feedback...
The heavy spruce guitars have a somewhat warmer/darker tone than the maple guitars (there is a fine line between warm and muddy...) The heavy spruce guitar will have a similar feedback resistance as the heavy maple.
The light spruce guitar will sound better acoustically (louder) than the light maple guitars but not as good as a solid-carved spruce guitar. Feedback resistance is less than the light maple guitars because they are more acoustically responsive. Good for lightly amplified (low volume) applications were a more acoustic component to the tone is desired. Can get out of hand feedback-wise and sound muddy if pushed too loud.
I use the terms "spruce" and "maple" to mean any species of similar density. For example a birch guitar (Hagstrom Jimmy) will sound basically the same as a similar maple guitar, as the woods are very similar in density.
Broadly speaking, the "quality" of tone will likely vary as the build-quality of the instrument...
These are just some very general observations, mileage varies.
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I agree with you but I find maple can be warmer than spruce were as you rightly identified, spruce can be darker. Originally Posted by Tom Painter
Although the tone can also seem a little flatter, I like that because it evens out any imbalances in the acoustic tone, which seems to always come through in the amplified one. The uniformity Maple tends to give, allows me to get a more reliable live tone.
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Very interesting....
I own a Collings Eastside LC.
I guess it should fit into the Light (Thin Top) Maple group.
Great acoustic quality with bright clear voice but seems slightly more prone to feedback than my 2010 Gibson 175.
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Yes, I suspect that you'll notice the Collings to be more open and dynamic whereas the Gibson has a more compressed tone. Both great guitars with great tones...just different. Originally Posted by Jazz_175
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My AF200 is made by FujiGen April/May 2014 and is number 71, it is quite light weight wise and very loud accoustically for a laminate, the finish is very thin for poly' the wood inside is finished completely smooth and you can see the flame on the Maple back and sides and the grain of the Spruce inside on the top. It's 16" across the lower bout not 16 1/2" as Ibanez have on their site, the rim depth is just over 2.75" inches, the build quality and finish is superb, I can now retire my old ES175 it's long due a rest.
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........interesting discussion....
........For me, then, I'd say that once you decide that your top priority is to significantly reduce feedback on your archtop, then yes find one with a laminated top.
........But keep in mind: that laminated tops vary, and could vary a lot.
Solid guitar tops made of the tonewoods mentioned here are expensive for a reason - and laminates of any type are always cheaper for a reason.
Again, MHO.
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I really am leaning towards the LGB 30. Thanks for all the advice guys. At what point do the made in Japan Ibanez guitars start? (Any archtop model) And what are the main difference s between the more expensive Benson model s and the LGB 30 appart from the cheaper Chinese labour costs.
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The cheapest MIJ Ibanez guitars are about £1000 more than the most expensive MIC. Compare the MIC AF155 (£650) and MIJ AF200 (£1600).
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The only current made in Japan Ibanez guitars are the LGB300, AF200, AS200 (semi), PM200, LGB300 £2749, PM200 £2219, AF200 £1639, AS200 £1639 ( I get a discount through a friend in the trade) the prices vary according to the Yen against the Pound. With the LGB300 and PM200 you are to a certain extent paying for the name, the LGB300, AF200 and AS200 have Japanese made super 58 pickups based on the Gibson pafs, The PM200 has a silent 58 neck pickup, the Chinese pickups are super58 customs not quite as sweet sounding but not a bad pickup IMO. I own both the LGB300 and the LGB30, the LGB300 has different style tuners and tailpiece and has 22 frets the LGB30 has 20 and is a slightly smaller guitar. Body, length LGB300- 20", LGB30 19.5", Width LGB300 supposed to be 16.5 " mine is closer to 16", LGB30 16", Depth LGB300 rim just under 3", LGB30 2.75", sound wise they sound very similar to me and playabilty wise I wouldn't like to try and define the difference. The LGB30 quality is excellent, all IMO of course. FujiGen do their own range of guitars they are called the masterfield series, I think the prices are in the £1630+ range. FujiGen built guitars and parts for Gibson, Epihone etc. Too much typing I'll stop now. Originally Posted by tdearn
FGN Guitars Masterfield Series / Full Acoustic / MFA-HHLast edited by Para; 10-05-2014 at 05:36 AM.
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Interesting.
From my experience the Japanese models always feel a little more substantial. Theres definitely a tangible difference in feel and quality.
However since you have first band experience at both, I can't deny your claims.
I'm surprised Ibanez would let the too reanges get so close, in terms of quality. Although the Japanese range, isn't that expensive, in itself. IT is true to stay, the Chinese stuff is just turning the Archtop world on its head.
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At my age Rich the senses dull a bit so your probably correct, I will say the quality is better but playing wise to me the necks are identical, the finish inside the Chinese model is nice and smooth as well but the purfling on the Japanese model is far superior. The Chinese guitars are getting better and better, they are probably superior to the ones that were made in Korea IMO. My only gripe is FujiGen don't have a custom shop, I tried to get them to make a one pickup version of the AF200 for me but no luck.
Last edited by Para; 10-05-2014 at 11:07 AM.
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Thanks for the responses. I will definitely be having a look at the lgb 30. Just got to find a buyer for my Fender Strat so that I can fund the new guitar!
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Yeh I could well agree with you there on the Chinese front. Originally Posted by Para
A single pickup AF-200 would be a JP-20. Trust me, the pick-up placement isn't nearly as bad as everyone makes out. Its a phenomenal sounding and playing Ibanez. One of the best IMO I just sold one but boy was I impressed. Same body as as the Af-200 but an even better neck imo.
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I don't really want to get involved in this as I have very hard and fast opinions and you can't tell me otherwise - and I base this on over 50 years of playing, repairing, building, buying and selling every kind of guitar you can imagine. I put all this talk about differences in tone between varying species of laminate top overlays of plywood guitars in the same category as the idiot Grateful Dead guitar tech who maintained that Jerry Garcia could tell by the sound whether he had brass or chrome plugs on his guitar cords or the rock star heroes who claimed that humbuckers with white bobbins sounded different than black bobbins or 'zebra' bobbins. To me it's all anal retentive BS. Folks, these are plywood guitars made to meet a price point not because anyone is looking for a different sound. Why do you think Bob Benedetto makes laminate guitars? It's because he's tryng to make something that people can afford to buy and still keep his name out there. Same for the far eastern factories - they make guitars that look like the 'high priced spread' beacause there's a demand for those guitars that people can't afford but will buy because they look cool.The amount of work and material costs going in to a carved top guitar is cost prohibitive. The majority of musicians cannot afford Bob's high end guitars - probably the only folks who buy them are successful baby boomer hobbyists. Same goes for L-5's, Super 400's, Johnny Smiths, etc. I've owned all these guitars at one time or another and I never liked any of them any better than any of the others - they're just guitars. after you've done it as long as I have, body size, neck shape, solid or laminate and all these other factors mean absolutely nothing to me (other than the fact that I refuse to play a guitar with a rosewood fingerboard- probably my only quirk, except for not liking the sound of humbucking pickups). You pick up and play what you got - a different higher priced guitar or boutique pickups are not going to make you play a bit better and you spend 90% of your time trying to copy someone else's sound that may even differ from recording to recording. As someone on here states in his signature: "Time On The Instrument.
My 2 cents worth....................YMMV.
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And this contributes how? go and rant somewhere else.
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