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Wasn't ranting - merely stating things as I see them. Sorry you don't like my viewpoint.
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10-06-2014 01:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
This is your opinion and I respect that. However my question in my initial post was related to feedback restraint which does vary between different guitars, woods, pick ups etc regardless of the price point.
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My apologies Skip I'm a bit grumpy this early in the morning. I basically agree with what you say except for the Rosewood fingerboard, I quite like rosewood myself. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
Last edited by Para; 10-06-2014 at 02:37 AM.
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If that assumption were correct, I'd probably agree with most of your post. However, it is not correct. Many people prefer the tone of a laminate and also like that they are less feedback prone. Maybe all the laminates you've played felt like cheap plywood to you but I can assure you that there are very high quality (and expensive btw) laminate tops that can sound better than a carved top. A Sadowsky laminate is a good example. The prototype for the JH model was solid carved until both Jim and Roger agreed that the laminate sounded better. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
I have a "classic" selection of solid carved top archtops. The laminate Sadowsky sounds better acoustically (by far) than any of them.
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Yeh I'd love to agree with you but the laws of physics doesn't allow me. You imply that people who do think there is a difference are idiots, which sounds like a rant to me. Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
I've not been playing as long as you have, repaired as many guitars as you not probably seen the variety (although I'm gonna assume on that one). It seems even more outstanding to me then, that you would have such an opinion.
Not sure whether that ses more about us, who believe it, or you for not noticing!
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In my opinion what follows is wrong.
Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
The following statement is true and trivial, so no need to repeat it here, however a different and higher priced guitar or boutique pickup can make you feel better and more relaxed in relation to the instrument that you are playing.
Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
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My experience leads me to believe that, all things being equal, a solid carved guitar will be substantially brighter than its laminate equivalent. IMO which sound is preferable is entirely subjective.
Laminate guitars tend to have chameleon characteristics that can allow them to sound like electric piano or organs when the tone knob is rolled off. On the other hand, carved instruments tend to sound stringier (not sure if that's an appropriate term) which results in a decay more reminiscent of the traditional guitar.
Another tendency that often presents itself is that of pickup type used. Laminate guitars most often come with built in pickups while solid carved instruments often come equipped with floaters. I feel that this choice in pickup type helps to accentuate the inherent qualities of each guitar style.
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I'm basically maintaining that there are so many different variables involved: PU type, manufacturer, wire gauge, bobbin material, magnet type and size, potted or not, built in or floater, thickness of top, number of veneer layers, thickness of individual veneers, species of veneer, type of glue used for veneer, amount of pressure used to laminate the top, thickness of finish, type of finish, bracing pattern, nut material, bridge material, fingerboard material, fret material, mass of machine heads, length of peghead, controls drilled in or pickguard mounted, presence or lack of a pickguard, string gauge, string wrap material, string core material, thickness of top, thickness of sides, thickness of back, are sides and/or back laminated, hide glue or Titebond or other for general construction. And, let's not forget harness wire gauge and length from point to point, as well as electronic component type, quality and manufacturer as well as the skill of the person doing the soldering. Also, type of tailpiece, type of bridge, break angle over the nut and bridge, saddle material (if adjustable bridge), hollow body, semi hollow body, solid body, thickness of body, width of body, length of body, size and shape of headblock and tailblock. Add all this to the amp brand, solid state, hybrid or tube, brand of tubes, brand of caps and other components, cabinet construction material,size of cabinet, cabinet design (ported?), number of speakers, size of speakers and speaker characteristics and even the size of wire used for the speaker connection and the lengtht of your guitar cord. All these things matter or CAN matter in the overall scheme of things.
Of course all these things result in the players' search for the 'perfect' sound they've got in their heads or they've heard on a record somewhere. That's why there are signature model guitars and companies courting well known players to endorse their products - those of us looking for that sound will buy the product to try and capture that elusive tone. It'll never make you play better - might make you 'more comfortable' as someone mentioned. Of course you might find that the instrument with the perfect sound is almost unplayable; Chet Atkins had high action on his guitars and I understand that you had to have a 'C' clamp to fret Freddie Green's guitar.
My whole point was not to rant as someone accused me of, but to try and pass along some experience and point out the fact that most tone is in the hands. I hate to see younger players coming along spend more time buying, selling, trading and modifying their instruments instead of learning to play. A couple of my heroes have always been Herb Ellis (no relation,I'm sure, although we're from the same part of the country) and Barney Kessel - those guys played those same old beat up Gibsons for their entire careers - Barney with his CC pickup and Herb with the old 175 (although he did have the HB added later). These guys PLAYED - they found a sound that worked for them and saw no need to mess with it. Maybe we would be better off trying to emulate them.
AND, as an afterthought, if you're like me, after 40 plus years of standing in front of amplifiers and loud drummers, you're probably lucky to be able to hear what song you're playing, let alone being able to differentiate the species of veneer in your guitar top.
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I would say that laminate guitars were made to meet a price point in the earliest days of there existance and still are built with price in mind for many of them ...
but as luck would have it some of them sounded really good .. and in the right hands with the right amp they sounded as good as or better than some of the solid carved archtops ... and most of us couldn't tell the difference once the band kicks in
Although to be honest ... Wes Montgomery's "Incredible Guitar" album sounds like a 175 to me ... some of his best playing but not my favorite Wes Montgomery tones .... IMHO of course
These days guitar makers are purposely making high quality laminate guitars and not just to offer something at a lower price ... although laminate guitars still tend to run significantly less than the solid carved guitars from the same maker
In my experience I've played laminate archtops guitars that had great acoustic properties and solid archtops that sounded more like a les paul sold body played acoustically than an archtop
And a lively 175 with good acoustic qualities is just as likely to feed back as a solid top in my limited experience .... but then guitars like the Ibanez George Benson were built with minimizing feedback in mind ...
so less feedback is not a hard and fast rule with laminates, but depends on the design and the individual guitar IMHO
As a hobbiest who gets to play out occassionally ... I lean towards a good solid top tone ... I picked up one of the earliest Le Grands in the 90s and finally brock down and bought an L5CES and an L5 WES a couple of years ago ... and I love these guitars ...
the L5s did impact my savings enough for me to question my sanity ... but now I'm seeing used L5s with asking prices equal to what I paid for new ones only 2 or 3 years ago
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I would really love to go out and buy a Gibson 175 and be done with it but unfortunately I cannot afford to do this in the near future. I have been playing in semi pro bands for over 15 years and have used the same Gibson Les Paul standard for the last ten years. Before that I used a Gibson Sonex 180 deluxe. I will continue to use the LP for rock gigs as it is the sound I like and I feel no need to change it. However for the last twelve months I have been gigging with a jazz quintet and I would like to use a more jazz instrument. I know that the sound is in the fingers mostly but I would personally like to try a more traditional jazz box. I have a strat sat in a case which I have had for years and never really used so I might as well off load it and get something to use with the Jazz band for a few years. I would love for this to be a real 175 but I don't think the revenue from my strat sale is likely to stretch that far!
Last edited by tdearn; 10-06-2014 at 01:14 PM.
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Well, there is an Epiphone 175 out there...
I think I trend towards the Ibanezes now as better guitars. Of course, my reccomendation for a budget archtop is always a Godin Kingpin, but they're not nearly as budget on the other side of the pond.
If you're playing outdoor gigs, I'd definitely go with a laminate.
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I quite liked the epiphone 175 but the guitar snob in me kicked in and not sure how I would feel about an epi! Sorry if I've caused any offence to epi fans.
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I was a gigging musician for 50+ years and I still have and play the ES175 I bought in the sixties now old and beat up like me so I know a little about guitars I attended workshops by Barney Kessel, Herb Ellis, Jim Hall and George Benson. The OP asked a specific question about Ibanez guitars and you came stomping in with big boots decrying everyones opinion that differed from your own that's why I used the word rant for which I apologised, we have already had one thread derailed by an opinionated poster and it won't serve any purpose if this one goes the same way.
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I played a Korean built Epiphone ES175 reissue belonging to a friend a few years back it was quite a nice built guitar and had IMO a nice sound. On page 4 in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos is a thread about the new reissue Epiphone ES175 Premium there are pics of one the poster has bought. Originally Posted by tdearn
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Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
You right, there are those out there that obsess over every detail. It is my understanding though, that those people are primarily Fender players, or solid body enthusiasts.
You mention an extensive list of popular complaints (again normally from solid body players) that I just don't see prevalent in the Archtop world. We're talking about woods, and your talking about why you think its stupid, for people to obsess over bobbins??
So being compared to people who yes, will moan about a soldering join being too big on a 69 les Paul deluxe, is a little insulting and perhaps why people have rightly got a little upset.
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I don't see them as complaints, just more pieces to the puzzle and don't understand why you think they're all rooted with solid body players - they're present in the archtop world, too. I see just as many posts regarding pickups, woods, etc. here, on, basically, an archtop forum (although there's a lot of Tele players on here) as I do on the Tele and LP forums. I'm not trying to insult folks or get anybody riled up, just trying to get people to realize that every guitar is different, based either on it's construction, string type, the amp used, or the player's technique - no two will ever sound the same and, I feel, that spending time in search of someone else's sound is a waste of time that could be more fruitfully spent in learning to play well on what you have. Again, TIME ON THE INSTRUMENT!!!! I'm not saying it's stupid to obsess over bobbins (then again, maybe I am) but, regardless, it's part of the pickup and the number of winds, wire dia, winding style, potting, etc. all have to do with the resultant tone whether it's on an L-5 or a Telecaster. A Duncan, Gibson, Stew Mac, Loller, Ibanez, Heritage or Chinese humbucker on the same L-5 will all sound different. I wonder if a chrome covered humbucker sounds different than a nickel covered one?
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For me the point of this thread was finding out about feedback resistance for playing large venues with a 100 watt amp. I agree time on the instrument is important but not really relevant for me trying to find out if I'm going to get screaming feedback when being paid good money to do a gig. I don't want to buy something and then revert back to my Les Paul because the feedback is uncontrollable. My thoughts were laminate works best for feedback restraint and I wanted other people's advice on this.
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Actually its complicated. You could buy an ES-175 but you will find it feeds back quite badly. Originally Posted by tdearn
It seems the biggest issue is thickness of laminate V:S body depth, or thats the basic model I've worked out.
Maple is a harder wood than spruce, hence why it is predominantly seen as the better laminate to go for. However cross a thin maple laminate with a thick spruce and it could be the same difference, in terms of feedback. (I think thats what Skip was implying).
On the other hand, you could get a thin maple top on a small bodied guitar and it will feed back less than a thicker spruce top on a bigger bodied guitar.
I have worked out a pretty good system.
1. Whether choosing laminate spruce or maple try to find the thickest top, that gives the best acoustic response. At some point there will be a threshold that you wont want to cross and that is where you will find success.
2. Try to pick a body that is small enough, to give you the acoustic response you want with the selected top (if poss).
Of course there is a cross over here too. Too big and it feeds back. too small and you might as well play the Les Paul.
Essentially Archtop players looking for a highly practical guitar, try to get as close to a solid body, without losing the characteristics of a hollow body. Many try Semi's but to my ears, they just sound dull.
The best sounding Archtop I had was a greco FA-95. It has a slightly shallower body to the Gibson Es-175, with a laminate maple top, thats not too thick, or thin. It sounded good enough unplugged but very good plugged in and at volumes, it didn't feed back.
There are several models available that offer all the things you looking for (although I don't know your price point).
So either something like a GB-10 or a scaled down Es175, like the Ibanez JP-20, AF-120, Greco-FA-95 (there are many more examples) etc..
Or a slimline, like the ES330, Guild SF3 again there are too many examples for me to list. (Although I will if you want). Slim-lines are great because I believe one of the biggest factors contributing to feedback are, body depth. Hence when you shave half an inch off the depth of a Gibson ES-175, it cuts the feedback drastically.
I forgot to mention but yes, we are talking about 16" guitars, not 17". All 17"s will give you feedback issues IME because the body is just too big.
Whats your price point? We can get on to recommending some models to you.Last edited by Archie; 10-06-2014 at 06:45 PM.
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Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Thank you very much for the advice. My budget really depends on if and for how much I sell my strat. If I sell my strat I was thinking about an Ibanez GB 30 priced at 709 pounds or an Epiphone 175 for about 670. If I don't get a buyer for the strat then maybe an Epiphone Joe Pass at about 370, but I would probably be better just hanging on till I do sell my Fender strat.
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In terms of laminates, Guilds both the older American ones and the new korean ones are recommended as well and worth checking out. They are a "thinner" laminate (ie 3 ply), old or new. So they have a bit more acoustic resonance. I think right now if you are on a budget the Guilds may be the best value for a laminate jazz guitar. (The Starfire II/III, the Manhattan, The Capri, and the Savoy). I am mentioning this because it's not on your radar, and it should be as well.
I would also look into Seventy Seven guitars.
They kind of fly beneath the radar. As stated the Ibanez AF200 or AF120 are both pretty good as well.
Thinner hollow bodies are also going to feedback less for laminates. The guild starfire II/III and the Seventy Seven Hawk both fall into this category. The guild aristocrat might also be a consideration. The aristocrat looks a bit like a les paul, but it's a small hollowbody guitar with no f-holes.
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As I said earlier you can cover the F holes with tape which drastically cuts feedback.
Check this vid it's Jimmy Smith playing a B3 with Charlie Crosby on drums and Eddie Mcfadden on guitar, Eddie is playing a Guild 175 with P90's through a head and big cab you can see the the tape over the F holes, no feed back at all and he's standing virtually in front of his amp
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I currently own a Peavey Rockingham archtop which I have added a Gibson classic neck humbucker to. I find this is extremely bassy with very muddy definition. Don't really want to get anything that isn't a significant step up from the Peavey.
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What about the laws of physics contradicts his observations? Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
I often hear "the laws of physics" thrown out there as a specious catch-all justification for various materials mythos, almost always by people who, upon further examination, don't really understand how the 'laws of physics' are actually applied to the real world.
Interesting to know where in the 'laws of physics' is his narrative precluded.
Lately, it seems that a lot of 'tonewood' believers are big on incanting Newtons Third to justify how the wood carrying a pickup influences the electromagnetically generated signal, thus tone. Is it that? Because for the record, they're completely wrong and its not even an arguable point.
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Originally Posted by Music
I always thought the question was more on how the "tonewood" affects the vibration of the strings .... and how that vibration influences the electromagnetically generated signal.
I've played enough laminated archtops to know that different guitars do have different acoustic properties and that generates different electrical sounds ... but with laminates that probably has more to do with how thick, how much glue and the number of laminations than with any particular wood species
If "tonewood" has no affect on the electromagnetically generated signal .. then an SG would sound like a Les Paul and an L5 would sound the same ... and a strat with a humbucker would sound like any one of these guitars
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A**hole alert, he was kicked out of the other thread Blue so now he's come in here, I'm off guys.
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