Guitar price vs value

[2bornot2bop]

this is the key point - apples vs. oranges. the elephant in the room is incredibly cheap Asian labor.

Could you be more specific? Clearly you're not referring to the "cheap Asian labor" American companies have availed themselves of for 4 decades, in favor of higher profits? So much so, that hardly anything is made in America any more....is that the labor you refer to?

[Jim Soloway]

Regarding Asian guitars, some of them are quite good ... but I don't mind risking a $1000 guitar on a plane vs a $10,000 instrument that stays on the ground.

I certainly hear that. I'd also add that I much rather take a risk on something that's got thousands of duplicates than something that's a one off or has a lot of emotional value to me. One of the great things about what Ibanez has accomplished is that they've learned to make a whole lot of guitars that are almost identical. That's one of the ways they've kept the price down but it also means that they're really easy to replace.

[SuperFour00]

I certainly hear that. I'd also add that I much rather take a risk on something that's got thousands of duplicates than something that's a one off or has a lot of emotional value to me. One of the great things about what Ibanez has accomplished is that they've learned to make a whole lot of guitars that are almost identical. That's one of the ways they've kept the price down but it also means that they're really easy to replace.

I edited my post yet again to better address your initial reply.

[fumblefingers]

Could you be more specific? Clearly you're not referring to the "cheap Asian labor" American companies have availed themselves of for 4 decades, in favor of higher profits? So much so, that hardly anything is made in America any more....is that the labor you refer to?

Of course.

[GoergeBenson]

I haven't read through all the posts here so apologies if i'm just repeating something.

The basic answer (imo) is that there is little correlation between price and quality. That doesn't mean to say that each manufacturer won't have their own pricing structure but if your comparing say, a Chinese Ibanez LGB30 (£650) to a Gibson Es-175 VOS 59 CS RI (etc..@ $4500) then NO!
In this case the opposite is true. The Ibanez has finer appointments and construction, so should be more expensive. Whether it sounds better or not is subjective

In the example given, I demonstrate a classic case of the 'Name' on the headstock scenario. Which is that, Gibson as a brand can command a greater price for a lesser product, due to lineage etc..
Thats only half the story though. Gibson's manufacturing costs are much higher, as their guitars are made in the USA.
(which in itself has intrinsic market value).

Another example would be a £2500 custom shop Fender Strat, V:S a Suhr or Anderson at the same price. Which is the better guitar?

In this case Fender commands a higher price again due to lineage. The actual quality of their product has always been debatable. Suhrs and Anderson's isn't.

Then you have to take into account the second hand market. You can get great guitars from years gone bye, or 'sleepers' that have real value, compared to their newer counterparts. Unfortunately these guitars become popular and thus prices go up.
One thing of note to watch out for is, there can be a lot of hype over certain vintage stuff. Sometimes you can end up paying quite a lot because you've read reviews, only to find you've bought something that you find disappointing and 'Over Pirced'
This could also lead to you buying an older guitar for more money, than you could have bought a better, cheaper, one new.

Luckily for you however, you live in probably the golden era of Archtop production. never before have we seen such quality instruments coming out of China by companies like Eastmen, Ibanez etc.. You are spoiled for choice.
For under $1000 you can get a great guitar.

Unfortunately what feels like good quality, in comparison to price, is something your going have to learn from personal experience. Go to a guitar shop and play all the guitars. Don't be afraid to ask to play the really pricey ones.

[docbop]

One thing I haven't notice mentioned (sorry getting into just scanning now) is resale value. I know certain brands and models are going to hold up value better than others. I just mentioned this on my recent amp thread and someone suggested a boutique amp. The boutique amp is probably great and is handmade, but I know with amps I am like others with guitars I tend to sell or trade them a lot. So I have to factor that into my buying and value decision, how much is this going to depreciate after initial sale and how hard will it be to sell later on. So resell is part of the value.

[2bornot2bop]

One thing I haven't notice mentioned (sorry getting into just scanning now) is resale value. I know certain brands and models are going to hold up value better than others. I just mentioned this on my recent amp thread and someone suggested a boutique amp. The boutique amp is probably great and is handmade, but I know with amps I am like others with guitars I tend to sell or trade them a lot. So I have to factor that into my buying and value decision, how much is this going to depreciate after initial sale and how hard will it be to sell later on. So resell is part of the value.

that's simple....buy it used and buy it right...you can sample just about anything...problem solved.

[kmaaj]

As for why, I can't give you a technical reason as I'm not a luthier. However, I've played a few Eastman Benedetto types including an AR910CE - to me it didn't feel comparable to a US guitar in that style. I wanted to like it, as I think they look good, but the playing experience wasn't quite there IMO.

I am a luthier, albeit nylon strung classical guitars. I highlighted that word in you post because it is paramount.

Density and stiffness of the wood is going to affect how the finished product feels. The variations in the mechanical qualities among tone woods (even the same species, even cut from the same log!) affect the feel and the sound. That is the reason why 2 seemingly identical Martin D28's set up exactly the same will feel and sound different. Add to this the endless variable of individual players sense of touch. Some players have a predisposition for how they want a guitar to feel, others adapt to the individual instrument. Even the most seasoned of luthiers, no matter how much experience they have in controlling or manipulating the variables, accept a certain degree of "chance" and that their guitar will find the right "hands".

factories in general, pay very little attention to the mechanical variables. The better the factories, the tighter the tolerances they enforce on assembly. In that regard, the difference between an Epi 175 and a Gibson 175 are nil to none. If 100 Gibsons are superior to 100 Epi's on the whole, it's partly because the Gibson wood buyer had a better acquisition on that given day, and partly because the Nashille or Memphis workers had better command of their craft on that given day. But I can pretty much guarantee that there will be a few Epi's in the lot that can hang with the Gibsons at a fraction of the cost.

[SierraTango]

As the owner of a 1990 Benedetto Cremona, and a 05' Eastman John Pisano 880, I feel I have some insight. I play out with both, have a active and full booking schedule. I also have a few students. While not my sole source of income, it is a major part of keeping me in beans and rice.

Most of my fellow musicians/fans want to know what I paid for my Cremona. I just tell them I could have bought a very nice new car instead, which is true. To ME, it is THE best archtop in the universe. You might play it and hate it-though I doubt it-and scoff, saying "I've played 5K archtops that are as good". That's fine and of no matter to me. That is what I define as "value"-I'm sorry but no amount of money, and I mean this sincerely, would tempt me to sell it. That is value-money becomes meaningless.


The Pisano is a wonderful instrument. It has it's role-certain gigs favor the built in pick-up, etc. And I will admit if the gig is outdoors in 100+ degree weather, I'm probably going to grab the Pisano.


There is a mystique and aura attached to Benedetto and a few other archtop guitars. There is a reason-IMHO they are worth every penny you will invest and more-if they take your music and playing to the next level, that is value. However, that can also be done with a $1,000.00 instrument.

[PTChristopher2]

[Patrick2}>>> [vs. Benedetto at] $30,000. Does anyone here actually believe that there are no luthiers here in the USA or abroad who couldn't make a very comparable guitar for 1/3 the cost and still realize a comfortable profit?


Hiya Patrick,

I know it is tangential to the overall thread, but in my estimate it would be tricky, to say the least, to make much if producing a Cremona for ten large as a solo USA luthier.

If we use technical discipline and call "wage" what you make for the work you do, and "profit" what you make for money you put at risk - then there is arguably no profit at all in a 10K Cremona.

You would have to live in Oklahoma (or Savannah, GA) to get some living and shop costs way down to even make the wage work.

I admire, or at least appreciate, the efforts of single luthiers who do such fine work for what amounts to remarkably low actual income.

All in my opinion. Surely there are luthiers who either are incredibly efficient or apply a different method to accounting.

Chris

[matt.guitarteacher]

But I can pretty much guarantee that there will be a few Epi's in the lot that can hang with the Gibsons at a fraction of the cost.

That's the crazy thing about the lower end ones: if you can check 'em out in the store, sometimes there's that luck factor. Every once in a while the machine just spits one out that's a lot better than average.

[SierraTango]

Patrick2 wrote:
Bob Benedetto's top of the line guitar, the 18" Cremona has a cost starting at . . . I'll repeat that, starting at $30,000.

Patrick, not to contradict your awesome knowledge of archtops, however the standard specs on a Cremona are a 17" lower bout like mine. To my knowledge his 18" guitars in the early days were called the Supreme, and not many were built. I'm sure you could order your brand spanking new Cremona with a 18" lower bout, though. No idea what the upcharge would be..

[NSJ]

Let's not forget to factor the value of the name *Benedetto* into the cost of one of his guitars. Similarly with Gibson. There is brand value associated with virtually every high end arch top made anywhere. Bob Benedetto's top of the line guitar, the 18" Cremona has a cost starting at . . . I'll repeat that, starting at $30,000. Does anyone here actually believe that there are no luthiers here in the USA or abroad who couldn't make a very comparable guitar for 1/3 the cost and still realize a comfortable profit? What would any of you estimate the cost of an Eastman or a Yunzhi to be if it was built exactly the same way, with exactly the same raw materials and hardware, but built in Bob Benesetto's shop and had his name on the head stock?

Here's a like vs like inquiry for you:

top of the line Bendetto (30K) vs. Ken Parker archtop (30K).

Forget about price for a moment:

The former has absolutely no interest for me; the later, DEFINITELY Yes. if I can ever come up with the funds....probably never

One key difference is: Bob apparently no longer personally builds the guitars, anymore (caveat: a couple years ago, he personally built a custom carved guitar for my teacher and presented it as a gift, for the years of friendship between the two--file under, what a nice guy! But still, I think he's kicked himself upstairs in his company and lets the build be done by others).

Whereas, Ken Parker is a shop of ONE, and makes archies that no one else has even tried.

[Spook410]

There is no magic in guitar making. It's craftsmanship, materials, and process.

- You can't confuse factory guitars with independent luthier and boutique guitars
- You can't compare price point laminates to carved solid wood instruments
- It's been awhile since Eastman was inexpensive. Still, they have captured a huge market share.
- Eastman and Yunzhi are making Benedetto copies. That's what they sound like. If they made Gibson designs, they would sound like a Gibson. You may have a preference, but that doesn't mean one is better than the other.
- Quality is both workmanship and features. On my last Yunzhi I had to polish out some mars in the finish that would never have made it out of the Gibson factory. I did this while admiring the 5 ply wood bindings and the super figured maple.

I'm lucky in that I can afford pretty much anything reasonable. I choose Yunzhi guitars because they are really good guitars. When I want to go to the next level, I'll get something from an independent luthier.

[docbop]

that's simple....buy it used and buy it right...you can sample just about anything...problem solved.

I do buy mainly used especially for guitars. The new guitars I have purchased generally were because I stumbled in to deal. Amps I tend to buy new more just because since my focus has become 97% jazz finding what I want used is harder.

[fumblefingers]

I am a luthier, albeit nylon strung classical guitars. I highlighted that word in you post because it is paramount.

Density and stiffness of the wood is going to affect how the finished product feels. The variations in the mechanical qualities among tone woods (even the same species, even cut from the same log!) affect the feel and the sound. That is the reason why 2 seemingly identical Martin D28's set up exactly the same will feel and sound different. Add to this the endless variable of individual players sense of touch. Some players have a predisposition for how they want a guitar to feel, others adapt to the individual instrument. Even the most seasoned of luthiers, no matter how much experience they have in controlling or manipulating the variables, accept a certain degree of "chance" and that their guitar will find the right "hands".

factories in general, pay very little attention to the mechanical variables. The better the factories, the tighter the tolerances they enforce on assembly. In that regard, the difference between an Epi 175 and a Gibson 175 are nil to none. If 100 Gibsons are superior to 100 Epi's on the whole, it's partly because the Gibson wood buyer had a better acquisition on that given day, and partly because the Nashille or Memphis workers had better command of their craft on that given day. But I can pretty much guarantee that there will be a few Epi's in the lot that can hang with the Gibsons at a fraction of the cost.

your confining the last example to laminate vs laminate right?

[fumblefingers]

Patrick2 wrote:
Bob Benedetto's top of the line guitar, the 18" Cremona has a cost starting at . . . I'll repeat that, starting at $30,000.

Patrick, not to contradict your awesome knowledge of archtops, however the standard specs on a Cremona are a 17" lower bout like mine. To my knowledge his 18" guitars in the early days were called the Supreme, and not many were built. I'm sure you could order your brand spanking new Cremona with a 18" lower bout, though. No idea what the upcharge would be..

That is correct. See Bobs boutique for an example, now sold.

special stain, wood binding, book matched back.

it went for $24K.

[fumblefingers]

Patrick2 wrote:
Bob Benedetto's top of the line guitar, the 18" Cremona has a cost starting at . . . I'll repeat that, starting at $30,000.

Patrick, not to contradict your awesome knowledge of archtops, however the standard specs on a Cremona are a 17" lower bout like mine. To my knowledge his 18" guitars in the early days were called the Supreme, and not many were built. I'm sure you could order your brand spanking new Cremona with a 18" lower bout, though. No idea what the upcharge would be..

Actually his non cutaway Sinfonietta costs $40K

[Hammertone]

(Guitar) price vs. value. Hmmm…:

The underpinnings of "value" are fascinating to me. I focus on the perceptual side of things when it comes to value. And human perception is a wonderfully varied thing affected by so many factors, including education, experience, bias, understanding and so much more, as well as our senses - hearing, sight, touch and perhaps even a little bit of smell. If some folks like to lick their guitars, I suppose we could add taste.

What we believe and why we believe it are good starting points. Good marketers focus on gaining that understanding and applying a variety of tools to influence consumer behaviours. Their goal is not just to motivate people to "buy", but to get them to "believe", because consumers' relationships with what they buy do not end with their purchases - goods get used, resold, repaired, recycled, repurposed, etceteras. New goods replace and supplement old goods.

This is not to say that cost, functionality, utility, availability, proximity, quality, rarity and so many other criteria aren't important - of course they are. Just that it is what people perceive, believe, feel and desire that are the real drivers of "value". IMO, of course, as PTC2 would add.

The microcosm of guitars wonderfully illustrates this and is so much fun to discuss, especially because it is so utterly inconsequential compared to pretty much everything else in the world.

"So we're in one of our blue moods
You wanna have it your way and I want it mine
All this debating goin' 'round in our blue mood
Makes me thirsty for love

Might as well go for a soda
Nobody hurts and nobody cries
Might as well go for a soda
Nobody drowns and nobody dies"
- Kim Mitchell, "Go for Soda"

[2bornot2bop]

it's a guitar gear forum....and I just spent x thousands of dollars on it, so it must be "valuable."

Swap the word "guitar" with the word audio, or cars, or U name it and you'll find the same whacked justification for most anything.

[GNAPPI]

All right, let me break it down historically.

In the old days when there were but few archtop makers (I'll use Gibson for this example) Quality and cost were tied to the "ART" of instrument making. Baseline guitars had no embellishments. As handwork (or machine time) and material selection and complexity went into the guitar cost went up.

When a maker added "F" hole binding, neck / head / body binding, exotic wood use, neck laminates, fingerboard inlays, gold plating, better finishes, and carving tops prices went up accordingly.

A "bare bones" guitar had none of these appointments and the cost was less... much less. As handwork, material selection and build complexity increased, so did the price. It all came down to labor and material.

Today Companies like Gibson STILL have these upgrades across their lines, but there are few if any mysteries in the design, we're still talking old tech here.

Craftsmanship outside the US is well trained, materials like binding and inlay are abundant and inexpensive, and these are contributing factors to some very fine examples of guitar making overseas. I don't think there are many archtops coming out of Asia without what was previously considered very expensive appointments.

Now the "differences" between big buck guitars and some others go into subtle less noticed attributes.

For example look at the back of an L5 neck. Then see the multiple jointed necks on some others. The heel of the neck is sprayed DARK to hide the joints, and there may be joints where the head attaches to the neck. This does not make the guitar sound or play bad, just cost less... the reality of designing to price targeted marketing.

I have a 335 clone that had pups so weak I replaced them. The magnets were so small they wouldn't make a good refrigerator magnet. BTW, this is also not an indictment Gibby owners swap pups more than I change my socks looking for tone.

Another subtle issue is metal plating, and I have seen many new guitars with rusty screws because the plating was inferior.

Anyway... Some have mentioned leave the finer examples of the guitar maker's art to those discerning users who appreciate the craft, I say why not?

[Patrick2]

Patrick2 wrote:
Bob Benedetto's top of the line guitar, the 18" Cremona has a cost starting at . . . I'll repeat that, starting at $30,000.

Patrick, not to contradict your awesome knowledge of archtops, however the standard specs on a Cremona are a 17" lower bout like mine. To my knowledge his 18" guitars in the early days were called the Supreme, and not many were built. I'm sure you could order your brand spanking new Cremona with a 18" lower bout, though. No idea what the upcharge would be..

"Awesome knowledge"? Ha! I've only learned just enough to know that I want to learn more! Here's a link up to the 18" Cremona on Bob's current web site.

Regarding your earlier post, I couldn't agree with you more about the magic Bob is able to stuff inside his builds. I've played probably 4 or 5 of his top end guitars over the years. All of them were older ones, and to Navdeep's earlier point, they were all made during the era when Bob was building them. I know that because all of the ones I've played were on consignment at Mando Bros and Stan gave me the low down on each of them. There is an intangible value in owning such a guitar.

Jazz Guitar Guide | Benedetto Guitars

[fumblefingers]

Let's not forget to factor the value of the name *Benedetto* into the cost of one of his guitars. Similarly with Gibson. There is brand value associated with virtually every high end arch top made anywhere. Bob Benedetto's top of the line guitar, the 18" Cremona has a cost starting at . . . I'll repeat that, starting at $30,000. Does anyone here actually believe that there are no luthiers here in the USA or abroad who couldn't make a very comparable guitar for 1/3 the cost and still realize a comfortable profit? What would any of you estimate the cost of an Eastman or a Yunzhi to be if it was built exactly the same way, with exactly the same raw materials and hardware, but built in Bob Benesetto's shop and had his name on the head stock?

I don't know about one third but maybe half. Campellone makes a high end guitar for $12.5K that's called The Cameo. It's really sharp too. It's basically a "Citation killer" in that it is very similar and costs about 50% as much.

I guess the question is "who cares"?

In other words, who knows about it, who wants one, how many does he actually sell? I rather suspect that if he started to sell very many he might be inclined to raise the price. You never know.

But whatever. Its a free country. If someone wants to have a go at building $10K to $15K Cremona's they can give it a whirl. I think they'll find it to be tough sledding though.

Bob Benedetto can and does sell guitars like the Cremona and Sinfonietta because he has built his reputation over four decades as a builder with a singular vision for uncompromising excellence. His guitars are now more refined and beautiful than ever. People love them, and people want to buy and play them.

It's tough to get to that point. When you get to that point you can charge $30K over and over again, but if you don't you can't.

[Восток]

Hand made instruments today are overpriced.

Gibson J-45 costs over 2500$ today, and counting inflation, it cost around 650$ when it was introduced. Same story for every other Gibson.

Today's machinery and technology has advanced significantly since that era, production process got easier, and competition is simply larger than ever. Yet, even though market logic dictates prices should be dropping and dropping, they keep rising and rising.

I personally don't know heck about expensive instruments by the way, I'm only commenting on the observable fact that prices always increase which says to me that people don't really count money when they buy these things.

GAS is a fancy acronym for consumerism.

[SierraTango]

Here's a link to Bob's first 1978 18" Supreme:Benedetto Supreme 1

Also on that site are pictures of a recent 18" Cremona. At that level I guess 17" or 18" is up to the guy with the gold. During my 25 year quest I wanted a instrument built from late 80's through the Fender deal. One that he built in PA. Just my personal favorites.