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I have owned many Gibson's and it almost got the point I would stop buying them because over 50% seem to have this issue.
I know, they've been making guitars for over a hundred years and can't seem to get it right. Especially these days.
As far as I'm concerned the trus rod cannot tighten because the neck is already compressed enough.
Just be careful that your selling a guitar that you know has serious issues that for the most part make it unsellable on ebay if you read their rules and of course its slightly unethical to sell a broken guitar.
You will need to have the frets plained or the fretboard plained or the old martin technique. Thats if your lucky and the rod doesn't have enough thread, which I doubt will be the answer but worth a try.
Its sad situation and one that never seems to stop with Gibson. Best advice I can give, stay away from Gibson or teach yourself what to look for when buying a guitar. That means carrying a spare set of wrenches like I do.
So many better and more quality alternatives. Only ever had 1 issue with a japanese neck had loads with Gibson.
Im sure people will disagree but thats my personal experience. Either way your in for some costs and I would advice about selling it on unless the buyer is happy with the way it is. Chances are, if your not, he/she won't be either and you could face return costs if you sell through ebay because technically the guitar is not functioning properly.
I don't think the 335 is a very good design. The neck is too long and not strong enough IMO thats one of the reasons I stay clear of them and with the cheaper probably less well cured woods used to pump out numbers, your looking at issues. Especially since they have a 1 piece mahogany neck. They should be using a laminate cross grain at least.
Of course i might be wrong about all of this, its just my opinion and experience.Last edited by GoergeBenson; 07-10-2014 at 01:22 PM.
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07-10-2014 01:16 PM
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fireman12engine . . .if I may jump in here . . . I know Pual Unkert (The Guitar Guy) well. He's a great tech, as well as a good luthier for solid bodies. I have to agree with rpguitar and the others who recommended a second opinion. This problem is pretty common . . and also a lot easier to fix than Paul indicated . . . as well as a lot easier to fix than most of the recommendations I've read herein.
If the truss rod nut is maxed out and you need more thread, a good tech will cut a washer to size and put it over the truss rod, behind the nut. Then, they'll take a heating block . . clamp it onto the neck and plug it in. This will heat the mahogany neck, the truss rod and the rosewood board. The clamp will continue to bring the entire heated neck back into conformity. After an over night stay, they'll unplug the heater and let it cool while still clamped to straight conformity. Then, a few minor twists on the truss rod nut will keep it in place.
Paul is very well aware of this process . . and if he didn't recopmmend it, then it's either because he just doesn't want to do it . . or his expertise tells him this process will not fix the problem on this particular guitar, which is of course very possible. But, if I were you, and I wanted to continue to deal with Paul (he definitely is good!) I would at least run this method by him and see what he says.
Where the hell is PT Chris???
There is a tech in Colonia NJ, whom I trust and respect even above Paul. His name is Steve Hayes and his business is called Steve's Studio. If you love that 335 . . give him a call . . reference my name . . let him give it a look.
I had an H535 which is pretty much an ES 335. The truss rod was maxed out and there was still at least an eighth inch relief at the 12th fret. On of my favorite tech/luthier people in the world, Aaron Cowles (RIP) used the exact method I explained above. When I got the guitar back, the neck was a straight as a rifle shot and there was still some travel left in the truss rod adjustment.Last edited by Patrick2; 07-10-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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[QUOTE=GoergeBenson;441210]I have owned many Gibson's and it almost got the point I would stop buying them because over 50% seem to have this issue.
I know, they've been making guitars for over a hundred years and can't seem to get it right. Especially these days.
As far as I'm concerned the trus rod cannot tighten because the neck is already compressed enough.
Just be careful that your selling a guitar that you know has serious issues that for the most part make it unsellable on ebay if you read their rules and of course its slightly unethical to sell a broken guitar.
You will need to have the frets plained or the fretboard plained or the old martin technique. Thats if your lucky and the rod doesn't have enough thread, which I doubt will be the answer but worth a try.
Its sad situation and one that never seems to stop with Gibson. Best advice I can give, stay away from Gibson or teach yourself what to look for when buying a guitar. That means carrying a spare set of wrenches like I do.
So many better and more quality alternatives. Only ever had 1 issue with a japanese neck had loads with Gibson.
Im sure people will disagree but thats my personal experience. Either way your in for some costs and I would advice about selling it on unless the buyer is happy with the way it is. Chances are, if your not, he/she won't be either and you could face return costs if you sell through ebay because technically the guitar is not functioning properly.
I don't think the 335 is a very good design. The neck is too long and not strong enough IMO thats one of the reasons I stay clear of them and with the cheaper probably less well cured woods used to pump out numbers, your looking at issues. Especially since they have a 1 piece mahogany neck. They should be using a laminate cross grain at least.
You are indeed wrong about this. VERY wrong.Of course i might be wrong about all of this
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I think it's worth mentioning that the "heat treatment" approach is not a cure all one shot fix. You typically do some fret leveling or a refret afterwards, either because you can't quite get the shape you want in the fingerboard or because in time the the neck will want to go back to it's previous shape to a certain extent. It does allow you to try and save the fingerboard if taking out wood at the ends would leave the fingerboard too thin if you go about a refret to get rid of the warp.
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Fireman, if you are still following the thread in the midst of our debate... What is the humidity like where you store this guitar?
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Great advice, vej . . but, no one does *better* fret work than Paul Unkert. He's quite good. My take on this is that Paul just doesn't want to take the job on . . for what ever reason.
Originally Posted by vejesse
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[QUOTE=Patrick2;441226]
I second that. Originally Posted by GoergeBenson
I set up my guitars with very low action, so even small neck issues cause me grief. Having owned more than 150 Gibsons, I've had neck problems on four:
'69 JSD developed a hump at 14th fret. Fixed under warranty
1980 Kalamazoo Award developed slight back bow after 33 years. No warranty. Planed and refretted.
1993 Citation. Had a small hump from factory. Guitar could be set to factory specs, but buzzed a bit with my setup. Had it planed and refretted after 20 years.
1994 WesMo developed back bow after 16 years. Gibson built me a new guitar under warranty.
I've had a dozen ES-355's that never had a neck problem. Many had one-piece necks. My CS-356's and Johnny A's, also with one-piece necks are still perfect after ten years.
Danny W.
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Patrick2: Please don't put words in my mouth. I recommended a second opinion by someone highly experienced with fretwork. No implication there, just a simple suggestion. Seems like a reasonable idea, no?
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Perhaps Gibson really does send its lemons outside of the USA. It sounds like the proportion of Gibsons with problems is higher in non-USA markets. Didn't Chimera1to1 have a torrid time buying a new ES-175 in the UK?
Except for Gibsons meant for the Japanese market (because those guys are perfectionists), I wouldn't buy a Gibson anywhere else but from one of the Big Four or Five Independent Dealers in the USA. For one, the warranty on it is honoured directly by Gibson in the US, not the country's importer. Huge difference. Second, the warranty outside of the USA is usually one-year long and may not cover the same terms as Gibson offers to its US customers. Third, consumer laws are different. Fourth, the country's importer may not see the importance of generating goodwill that Gibson does. Fifth, you are usually left to pick from whatever stock the importer has. No cherry picking. Buy to try and then return if you do not bond with it? In most markets, you buy it, you keep it. Not bonding with it, not liking the way it sounds are not grounds for returns.
Lastly, it is far easier and cheaper for a US dealer to ship a lemon back to Gibson for replacement than a non-US importer. So, the proportion of lemons seen is consequently higher. Try shipping one archtop 3 times across the Atlantic. There goes the importer's entire profit margin and more. Not to mention that HM's Royal Customs and Excise Office does not do refunds on import duty with any cheer or efficiency. So, importer gets to eat that portion too. The end result is that good or bad Gibsons, they all go out into the market and the importer hopes that nobody notices or minds.
So, GoergeBenson may have his point as he is in a different Gibson market served by the UK's Gibson importer. It is easy to say, it happens that way in the US, it must be the same elsewhere in the First World too. Not necessarily.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 07-10-2014 at 05:18 PM.
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[QUOTE=Patrick2;441226]
Well I would like to know why. Just saying I'm wrong isn't really helping me. Originally Posted by GoergeBenson
In the end, I've had Japanese and American (Gibson) guitars. Never had a problem with the Japanese stuff (except once), always had an issue with the American Gibson (Well I have had two with necks that were good, one of them excellent).
I like my action low, if a guitar cannot achieve that, I consider it faulty. I have encountered many Faulty Gibson's,
My claims about the Es335 neck may be wrong but my experience with Gibson's is DEFINITELY not.
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Gibson is pretty much a victim of its own hallowed tradition. They cannot mess with tradition because their fans won't stand for it. The Gibson truss rod is an antiquated design but Gibson cannot change that without the incurring the wrath of its fans. Sheathed truss rod? Out. Tone-killing. Back to the "correct" bare truss rod now. Plasticised Nitrocellulose Lacquer? Out. Tone-killing. Back to "vintage" formula that checks. Ha. What is that check-line doing on a new guitar? Back to Gibson for a refund and now Gibson's QC sucks. Non-fugitive dyes that are colour-fast? Out. Not vintage accurate. Vegetable aniline dyes that fade in the sun please. But the dye bleeds now into the neck binding turning it pink. Gibson QC sucks. Back to the dealer for a refund.
And it goes on and on. Titebond is verboten. Hide glue please. Bilaminate rosewood fretboard is risible. Single-layer and make it Brazilian Rosewood while you are at it.
The Japanese aren't hobbled by tradition because they have none to speak of so they usually use what is modern and plain works in their guitars.
So, love the Gibson truss rod or hate it, this problem will never go away. Besides, the truss rod is not meant for finessing playing action to have it "play like butta". It is the one thing meant for seasonal neck adjustments which has morphed into something it was not meant for. Turn it one too many times without waiting for the neck to settle because 'you want it to be playable like butta NOW" and the end result is a lot of broken truss rods. I know players are obsessive about squeezing that one last bit of playability out of the guitar; perhaps we just got to make do with less speed and more technique. The wood can only be compressed so many times before it cannot be compressed any longer. I wonder how many truss rods Bireli Lagrene has broken in his archtops. I would bet none.
Racing car engines last about the duration of one race too. If you treat your guitar and its parts like a race car engine, be prepared for the lack of longevity. But it does play like butta while it lasts.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 07-10-2014 at 05:51 PM.
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hey Patrick thanks for the info and suggesting the other guitar tech.
I have complete trust in Paul, don't get me wrong, and since you guys
have been suggesting it, I'm might take it for a 2nd opinion. Paul did say
that even if I paid to try and get this problem fixed, there's a good chance that it would still be
messed up. I'm just stressing about what to do, thanks for all the help guys. Damm guitar....lol
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RP, I'm still here....I keep it in its case in a room that's pretty close to 50% humidity most of the time.
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To the OP; have you tried calling Gibson? Perhaps Gibson might care enough to fix it for a fee or give you one in exchange for it? You won't know till you try. The worst Gibson can do is to say No. Or Gibson might care enough about goodwill to give you one in exchange either for free or for a reasonable sum of money.
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 07-10-2014 at 06:02 PM.
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>>> Where the hell is PT Chris???
Har-har. I am agreeing with Jim that this we are full of comments that may not be the most useful.
100% agreed with vejesse that heat is far from a cure-all. Sometimes it is decidedly unhelpful. Often it can help some while introducing some artifacts that will need to be fixed afterwards.
I think I will be no help here in speculation. And to gather up all the sideways commentary and discuss the general subject may well annoy.
A second opinion would be interesting.
Chris
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Ok . . . so, once again you've confused the hell outta me! Please help me understand . . . exactly which words are you referring to, that you accused me of putting in your mouth? Originally Posted by vejesse
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[QUOTE=GoergeBenson;441251]
I'm not questioning your experiences with your own Gibson guitars. How could I ever do that? That would be equally as absurd as your implications that there are far more turds from Gibson, than there are good or great guitars. Originally Posted by Patrick2
You want to know where I believe you're wrong? Ok . . . categorically;
"I've owned many Gibsons and 50% of them seem to have this issue".
I call BS on that. If some how that is true, then it certainly doesn't speak well of your own ability to evaluate a guitar before you buy it, does it? You advise the OP to "stay away from Gibsons" yet you claim . . "I've owned many of them" On that one . . I call either BS or total stupidity. You know they suck . . yet you've bought and owned many of them??? Are you openly admitting that you somehow over looked the fact that 50% of the "many" Gibsons you've purchased were turds?? I'd not be too willing to admit to something like that.
"I know, they've been making guitar 100 years and can't seem to get it right".
I call MAJOR BS on that one!! Can't seem to get it right? Who knew??? Check the who's who list of artists who have played Gibsons since the '50s and who are still playing them today.
"As far as I'm concerned, the truss rod cannot tighten becaue the neck is already stressed enough."
Not only BS . . but totally inappropriate to make a diagnosis from a whole continent away without even ever having seen or touched the guitar. That's just absurd.
"I don't think the 335 is a very good design. The neck is too long and not strong enough IMO thats one of the reasons I stay clear of them and with the cheaper probably less well cured woods used to pump out numbers, your looking at issues. Especially since they have a 1 piece mahogany neck. They should be using a laminate cross grain at least."
Now this one is just way off the charts insane. Introduced in 1958, the Gibson ES 335 is one of the most highly sought after and frequently used guitar Gibson ever produced. It's cousin at Hertiage . . made almost exactly the same way . . is Heritage's highest production model, by a wide margin . . yet you, in your expertise make the claim that it isn't a very good design??
Hope that helps to clear it up for you. But, somehow, I don't think my reply will sit well with you.
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Unfortunately, you're stressed because Paul planted a seed in your mind that this guitar is beyond anyone's ability to correct it. That's just not true! Almost any guitar with almost any problem can be corrected. Paul knows that better than most others. Heck man, he builds the damned things . . and he does so quite well. Originally Posted by fireman12engine
You really do need another opinion on how to fix it and how much it would cost. I believe that Paul's council to you was hasty and incomplete. What he should have told you was exactly what it would take to make the guitar not only playable, but damned near perfect . . and how much it would cost to do so. Then, you can start to make idecisions. To just tell you to trade it in to GC and let the next guy worry about it was sorely lacking in professionalism. That's conduct unbecoming of any business man. As a guitar tech, you don't recommend to a client that he pushes a problem off on the next poor guy . . probably a kid who might have saved up his money for a long time to buy the ES 335 of his dreams . . . possibly ignorant of its issues. That's just dead wrong!
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A friend of mine has an ES335 with a fairly thin 60's neck (mahogany). One of the things that I first noticed about it was how easily the neck would bend. The slightest amount of pressure on it would alter the tuning. It's a great sounding guitar, but it requires a gentle touch.
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It's an '02 that fireman bought used in '08 . . if I remember what he posted correctly). Ain't no way it the worls that Gibson . . or anyone else is going to replace the guitar under those conditions . . . nor should they. The most "good will" they sould offer would be to have fireman ship it back to them, at his expense, for evaluation and an estimate of how much it would cost he to have them make the corrections required to make the guitar perfect. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Hey jab . . it's not Gibson who's the victim of it's tradition. It's the boneheads who are demanding and willing to pay through the nose for a period correct Les Paul made with hide glue, analine dye, BRW, un sheathed truss rods . . susceptible to glue ooz freezing it up, . . .etc., etc., etc. The vintage Les Paul fanatics were buying brand new R9s and having the ripped appart and made over to "period correct" specs . . to the tune of $2,500 a pop!! Gibson recognized this, filled and capitalized on a market demand. That's what business is all about. Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Nothing wrong with hide glue. In fact if more fingerboards were glued on to necks with hot hide glue you might have less warp and other neck problems resulting from the "thermoplastic creep" that aliphatic resin glue suffers from. I believe also that Titebond creeps over time without heat, but simply just from tension in shear alone. Hide glue will not do that.
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Originally Posted by fireman12engine
In this case, I think *I* can. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
My thoughts exactly. Originally Posted by Patrick2
My past statement stands unchanged.
That's the *for me* most likely scenario. It's unthinkable that somebody that calls himself a "luthier" doesn't know how to correct this issue. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Even in the first of Dan Erlewine video series from early '90s (in VHS) this very issue is addressed, on a '68 Gibson LP Custom that a customer brought to be evaluated if it was worth buying.
http://www.stewmac.com/How-To/DVD/Da...nd_Basses.html
Here! In the second picture from the left, that's exactly what I was talking about.
Your Honor, I rest my case!
Last edited by LtKojak; 07-11-2014 at 04:55 AM.
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+1. That is what I am afraid of but do not have the cojones to voice out for fear of being accused of bad-mouthing; it is usually the kid who saved up his paper route money for his first real Gibson who gets the short end... Originally Posted by Patrick2
Originally Posted by Patrick2
$3975. Payable in four installments. Makeover Packages .
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Don't try this at home: STEWMAC.COM - Truss Rod Rescue Kit Instructions .
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