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This pertains to the high end ibanez like the GB and PM series and specifically the japanese versions.
I've owned 15 or 16 ibanez and every single one of them played perfectly with super low action and no buzzing. With many of the american brands, the setups are usually funky and some even need a planing and refretting from the factory.
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03-13-2014 06:58 AM
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The Ibanez model of production is unique. There is no Ibanez factory. There are factories throughout the far east that make Cort, Samick, PRS, Epi models to name a few others, make Ibanez, sometimes side by side with specs and electronics controlled by Ibanez. The best ones are made in a very high quality hand controlled plant in Japan where the first ones were made and continue to be made.
Here's the difference. Every single Ibanez passes through a single set up and inspection point in each individual country they're sold. In the US, it's in Bensalem PA where a crew of trained minions brings guitars from ALL over places in Indonesia, Korea, China, Japan... and adjusts, files, polishes, sets actions, neck relief, inspects for flaws, damage or inconsistencies... and brings it to very specific standards. This also acclimatizes each guitar to the local conditions. Then shortly thereafter, they get shipped all across the country.
This might explain why the Ibanez you get felt like it was set up last week.
That's what I used to do when I was on the Hoshino chain gang.
Nice work if you like factory wages and hackey sack.
David
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Well the whole Ibanez neck thing is subjective, some people think they are too skinny, I think the GB10 necks are about as perfect as it gets, some of the other necks, like many AS200 necks (thes is what I consider a Prestige model) are too skinny, the ones from the 90s especially. Many people say the BEST ones quote unquote are from the early 80s, BUT then people also say they had an early 80s AS200 and it's neck was too skinny. It's all preference, but a good one sure is a joy to play. I used a GB10 as my gigging guitar (church band) from 1988 to 2006, yeah lots of other guitars would come and go and while I was in the honeymoon period with them I'd take them to the gig, frankly nothing was as easy to play or sounded as right as those GB10s, I had a really beat '78 I found in a consignment shop for $700.00 (in 88) but it needed a lot of work. Still it was amazing. Sold it while I was in chef school to pay the rent and eat, but got another, a '81, in 2001 for $1700.00 that was my pride and joy - sold it when I got married to pay for my move to Jersey. Still miss that one.
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Actually, via factory setup, I think nobody beats....Taylor.
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Your right Jz and I think some are missing the point of your topic. Its not about if they are too skinny or too flat, its about the fact that only on Japanese and related companies can you get a neck were the action can be whatever you want. If you want it sitting literally on top of the frets and still not buzz, or whether you want the necks to stay true and be adjustable over time.
Originally Posted by jzucker
I have had plenty of American archtops and can only say, they frustrate you as much as enthral you. Gibson as a classic case seem to sometimes be barely able to produce a neck worth using. I've had endless trus rod issues with Gibson, Fender etc. Rarely and I mean Rarely do I find a second hand Gibson or fender, that can have truly great low action. The truss rods are always maxed out, yet the necks need at least another half turn. You often get cracks in the brining where the frets settle and push out against the nibs.
In the end, if you want a guitar to perform to the maximum and don't have the bills to pay for a luthier made American instrument, then your best choice (on average) is to go japanese.
Thats not to say I haven't had one or two issue with Ibanez or Japanese guitars, but those necks on the 70;s models, are still working and as good as the day they were made. Even my local luthier stated as much and he sees a lot of them.
I'm glad you wrote this thread JZ because this is something I have often felt. Essentially really disappointed in the American mass guitar producers. Esspecially now I have to take a 97 fender plus deluxe (unplayed) to my tech to get him to unjam the true rod and plain the frets because the neck is like a banana (this is the 3 rd fender now and will be the last).
Not bashing America just stating my experiences from a europeans perspective. And of course I could have just been unlucky and I'm sure many of you have had wonderful experiences with American made guitars.
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Disagree Jeff. I've played PLENTY of taylors with bad setups. AND they change over time very poorly due to neck shifts, twists, etc. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I'm not talking about skinny vs fat. I'm talking about the ability to get silky smooth, low action with no buzzing *AND* to keep it that way forever. Again, my '78 GB10 still has original frets and the action is ridiculous on it. Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
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I know plenty of jazz guitarists in NY who won't even play a gibson until they have the frets pulled and the fingerboard planed. I think it's pretty common
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I'm in strong disagreement with most of what GB has posted above . . unless he's talking about the more recently mass produced models.?.? I'm also assuming the portion he posted about Gibson is due to the fact that he based his assessment on Gibson's production line of guitars . . . and not those coming out of either of their Custom Shops.?.? I've owned 8 guitars from the Nashville shop . . and I still own 5 of them. The necks on all 8 were/are perfect . . not just very good . . but, perfect! I've also play dozens of Custom Shop Gibsons, as I traveled and visited music stores during my affiliation with Heritage as a rep. They were all anywhere from perfect on the upside and in need of a slight tweak on the down side. I've never played a Gibson mass produced guitar of any model designation that was made after the mid '80s . . (that I can remember). The last one was a blond 1984 ES335 dot board with Shaws. I'm still angry with myself for selling that one.
I can't even begin to tell you how many second hand Fender strats and teles I've owned and played. Never any issues beyond a truss rod tweak, loose fret or some other very minor issue. But, again, that was up until the early '70s. I've never played one made after that era.
Also, the only Ibanez guitars I've ever played were two very low end models, so I can't really comment on the higher end ones . . but I've heard that they're great. The two cheapies I played were horrid.
But, here's an interesting personal observation on my assessment of a neck/finger board; it's really crazy, but I'm far more put off by the appearance of finger board issues . . than I am when playing those very same guitars. If I look down a neck and see something less than perfect, it bothers me. But, then . . . while playing those very same guitars ..the actual issue is far less of an issue than the visual assessment would have led me to believe.
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Jack . . . not sure what type of Gibsons these guys are rejecting out of hand . . but, this seems to be pretty extreme. Are you talking about brand new? I visit many well known shops and play pre owned Gibsons all the time. Lark Street, Mando Bros, The Zoo, Rivington . . . etc.. The Gibson jazz boxes I've picked up in those shops are pretty much gig ready. Originally Posted by jzucker
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A much greater dedication to quality control and repeatable processes. And it's not just the high end ones. I had the same experience with my Artcore Expressionist guitar (and all of the other Expressionist guitar that I tried while shopping). The down side is fewer optional neck shapes.
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Talking about 175s mostly. Not custom shop. But the ibanez guitars that play so much better than the gibsons are not custom shop instruments. They are in the same price range as a 175. Until last year, they were about $1k less than the 175 but Ibanez recently bumped the price of their premium archtops by about 30% Originally Posted by Patrick2
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The neck and set up on my PM2 is the best I've ever played. And I've played a lot of guitars.
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Hell even the Ibanez afj95 I had played fantastically. (MIC)
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Of course your right Patrick and I believe you 100%
However in my experience as an amateur guitar collector/dealer I can't tell you how nervous I am when I come into contact with purchasing a used Gibson, and 'yes' were talking custom shop. I'm not in the market for anything else.
I always have to spend twice as long checking over a Gibson, because they are full of little nigs and bugs. It even got to the point where I decided that I would stay clear of them but hey, those Big body Gibson's do get my heart racing.
I can only sum up my feelings by saying, if I could go back in time to the 50's and 60's I would kiss every guy in the Gibson Factory.
But if I was to go in now, I'de rather want to go round and do some slapping. Obviously I mean that in jest.
They are capable of fine work but its hit and miss (IME).
Anyway, I'm not here to bash Gibson, you get my point and of course its just my opinion relating to my experience and given with a pinch of salt. Plus I deal in the second hand market so, who knows what clown has rested his neck on a radiator etc. Although I had a 2011 Tal that was the worst archtop I've ever played. Had another one, that was one of the finest (although Ironically that was the one with the trus rod and neck issues).
:-)Last edited by GoergeBenson; 03-13-2014 at 02:34 PM.
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[QUOTE=GoergeBenson;407069]
Of course your right Patrick and I believe you 100%
If only I could get my wife of 45 years to utter those words. (sigh)
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And remember, I went through 5 Gibson 175s in the last 2 months. Only 1 of them played well and it was planed and refretted. The others played like crap. Yet, the 35 year old GB10 played like buttah.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Yeh I've owned dozens of Ibanez, greco and Aria from the 70's 80's etc. Not an issue in sight. Apart from 1. I took my 2355 to a french luthier off brick lane in London and the first thing he said was "Its amazing how these old Japanese guitars still have perfect necks, they really used proper wood".
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Might a high degree of inherent stiffness in those necks be a factor in making it easier both to ensure consistency and in preserving it over the years?
I remember owning five Ibanez electrics over time, and I always felt there was something incredibly dense and stiff about those necks (or, for that matter, the fingerboards).
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You're right. Out the door, Taylor does make the most consistently good guitar out there. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I can certainly vouch for the UK/Europe setup centre, if 3 guitars counts as a reasonable sample. All were setup perfectly "out of the box", whats more, they weren't the more expensive MIJ, but MIC and all sub $1000 (just). In fact, the best of the lot in terms of silky playing is the cheapest and most recent acquisition - an AFJ91. I couldn't even upset the setup with an immediate string change ! Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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I have an Ibanez AF207 7 string and it has the lowest, fastest action of all my guitars, and has remained totally stable for as long as I've had it. I feel their commitment to quality control and jazz guitar in general is commendable. I wish I could say the same about some other guitar manufacturers , whose products I also own.
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Here's what I think. I think that ibanez hires very skilled luthiers to do the fret leveling and nut work. If you look at any new, non custom shop gibson (be it a 175 or Les Paul), the nut is horrible. First of all, they use cheap plastic and then they are always cut too high and without a single point contact (bad for intonation) and the strings usually bind in the nut. The frets do not look professionally leveled or polished. I've been told that the majority of folks working on gibson guitars in their factory are getting minimum wage and go through training to learn to do things like install frets and such. According to legend they are not luthiers.
With an Ibanez (at least the GB and PM series) the nuts are not cheap plastic, and they are cut properly and low and the frets are leveled extremely well. Any new gibson needs to have a fret level and a new nut cut almost from the very beginning whereas the Ibanez stuff has already had that done. In the old days, I was told that part of gibson's cost included the store doing a fret level and setup prior to you taking it home but in these days of mail order and guitar center, that's all but forgotten.
One huge advantage of doing the fret level at the factory is that if there is a problem in the neck that a fret level cannot fix, the instrument is fixed at the factory by leveling the fingerboard and refretting or whatever else needs to be done.
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>>> [a Gibson nut is cut] without a single point contact (bad for intonation)
No, a nut slot is not at all best cut for some sort of single point contact.
>>> According to legend [...]
The according to legend threads can make one pine for more political threads.
>>> In the old days, I was told that part of gibson's cost included the store doing a fret level and setup prior to you taking it home but in these days of mail order and guitar center, that's all but forgotten.
This is not true. I was a Gibson warranty and dealer-support tech/luthier in those "old days". There was no such structure in any cost model. Maybe you refer to the the 1930s or something.
It is not my wish to defend Gibson at all.
Chris
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Can't comment for others, but based on my experience: I bought an '06 175 a couple of years ago off the original owner. It felt like it had been hardly played - basically new. Nut was too high, particularly on the treble strings - and you couldn't get the action to even a medium height without ridiculous buzz. Got the nut adjusted and the frets filed a tiny bit - voila! Action as low as you want with virtually no buzz - it's a very fast playing guitar. Much sleeker than other 175's I've played from different eras - not saying better, but more sleek and quick - a more 'modern' feel and response. Nothing like a 50's one. Maybe in terms of setup, they place different priorities on different models based on time/cost/worker experience etc.? dunno...
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