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They are assembly line workers feeding materials into CNC machines, the hand work is smallest part of the process now. Plus so many companies today use the customer is the final QC, cheaper to fix the few products that customer complains about than check them all.
Being I started the early days of software I watched it go from a engineering driven product, to marketing driven product, to now its all finance driven. Products go out when the books need the numbers ready or not, that is getting to be how every type a product is being produced.
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04-19-2015 01:40 PM
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Ive owned countless Ibanez guitars over the last 40 or so years and most have been fine guitars with great fret work etc. The Ibanez neck "as a rule"seems to be a bit thin for my needs but for the most part I enjoy playing them. Ive never played any that weren't made in Japan though. Bob
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Truer words were never spoken! I had a conversation about the very same thing last night, its everywhere! My friend was telling me that she told her boss there were issues with the item they were finishing up and she was told to tell her people to ship it anyway. Someone else would have to deal with the problems, the big thing was, on the books, it was finished on time. That's one of the reasons I took an early retirement. I was in a totally different business but the corporate culture was the same. There are companies out there who use no CNC machines and can still produce great guitars while keeping the QC to the highest standards and prices the average musician "even a Jazz musician" can afford! You just need to do your homework! Bob
Originally Posted by docbop
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My '89 Gibson L4CES: plays like butter, bone nut, no work needed.
My '06 Gibson '56 Les Paul: needs some fretwork, horrible plastic nut needs replacing.
My '09 Gibson '59 335: plays well, but has visible marks in the fretboard from a plek machine, nut is plastic but works fine.
My '83 Ibanez AS-50: played well, but neck was very thin and very bendy (who needs a bigsby?), some fret-sprout (I don't know if these were the original frets), nut ok.
I guess the Ibanez may not be considered high end. I think ultimately I've bought Gibson because I'm going for a particular sound, and also like the neck profiles (not available from Ibanez). The Ibanez guitars I've tried have a different sound (and some people prefer it). I'd personally like to try more Collings guitars for their reported build quality, as a Gibson alternative.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
I feel the same way about Carvins, they just play soooooo ridiculously good, I look at a note and it comes out!!!
I wonder if Ibanez is Plek'ing their necks. Either way, fretwork, fretwork, fretwork!!! Also, ensuring the woods are dried/ high quality enough before using to ensure it doesn't move around too much.
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I've had my '81 GB10 since 1986 and the truss rod has never been touched. The neck is as close to perfect as I have ever seen. If it was 1 3/4 it would be perfect. The consistency of that guitar is amazing. Seasonal changes here in Minnesota don't faze it. It stays in tune better than any guitar I have owned. Originally Posted by jzucker
OK, I am going downstairs and getting it out of the case to play it. Dang it, Jack!
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This may be true with some brands, but I have owned at least 20 Guilds over the years, from every USA factory except for Tacoma (NY, Hoboken, Westerly, Corona, and New Hartford). Every Guild had a perfect neck that could sit unplayed (the problem with having too many guitars) in New England for several weeks with little to no tuning needed, and not one of them ever needed any work on the neck. On the other hand, I have also owned a Gretsch G6120JR and a G&L ASAT Deluxe which both had twisted necks, an Epiphone Elitist Country Deluxe with a neck that severely dove away from the strings at the higher frets, and many others that needed constant attention to the truss rod, and had trouble staying in tune. Like Jack Z., I also owned an Ibanez GB12 that had a very good neck of the quality of my Guilds, but certainly no better. I would love to have that GB12 back, but more for its visual beauty than for its tone. It sounded nice and was built very well, but tonally does not compare with most of the Guilds I have owned previously, and any of the Guilds I still own. My former Yamaha SBG2000 (MIJ) also had a very nice neck, but the damn guitar weighed a ton! Originally Posted by docbop
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i've also owned quite a few guilds, x-500, x-700, x-180, x-170. I thought the necks were all good. Probably better than an off-the-rack gibson but they didn't compare to an off-the-rack high end ibanez in terms of the fret-work.
Surprisingly, the best factory fretwork and necks I have played have been on the high end japanese guitars. Aria, Yamaha, Ibanez. Right out of the box, they play with super low action, no fret leveling required.
The worst is (or used to be) heritage. Most of the heritage hollowbodies up until recently were almost guaranteed to need a planing and a refret. My Eagle Thinline was like that but once it was done, it was comparable to the Ibanez in terms of stability, action, etc. Of course, my luthier is great too. George Benson sends guitars to him.
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The initial subject/question, while stated as fact - and hence is debatable - is nevertheless a legitimate curiosity.
Have you ever purchased a brand new Martin acoustic guitar, even a premium one? Both nut and saddle are guaranteed to be too high for optimal comfort. Why do they sell them that way? The answer is "choice." It might be a misjudgment, but it's choice nonetheless. And you live with that, because it's a Martin and you want one, so you have it set up or do it yourself. You are left with a top quality, iconic guitar that owes nothing to anyone.
Out of the box perfection is not high on my list of requirements in a guitar. I've had to relentlessly tweak the setup on every guitar I've cared about, whether new, used, or vintage. And personally, I'd rather have an aftermarket fret-dressed Gibson than a "perfect" factory Ibanez any day of the week. Ibanez frets might be perfect*, but I dislike the neck profiles and often the string spacing is more narrow than it needs to be given the nut width.
*Two Chinese made Ibbies I've owned are very far from that, but I realize we're discussing MIJ only.
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I started playing Ibanez guitars in 1971 or 1972. The company was exporting Gibson copies--EB0 and EB3 bass copies, Les Paul copies, and ES-175 copies--like mad. I put in crazy hours on a bolt-on neck EB3 Ibanez and a copy of the 175.
At _that_ time, I don't think the quality of the Ibanez instruments was any different than the quality of US-made guitars...maybe just a little bit lower, if anything.
Five years later, however, things were markedly different. The quality of the Japanese-made Ibanez guitars was _way_ up, along with the Matsumoku and other guitars.
By the time that Ibanez came out with the GB-10, JP-20 and LR-30 guitars in the late-70s, the quality of the Ibanez guitars was such that you could take one off the wall in your local store and be assured that the neck was going to be straight, the action low, the tuners perfect, and the neck carve was exemplary. The JP-20s I played in that first group...somewhere around '79 or '80, IIRC, had some of the most stable necks I have played on _any_ guitar, ever. The guitars just seemed to be put together so well, I imagined that I could travel with them on the airlines with no problem. (I was not a traveling musician, however.)
I would disagree, by the way, about Heritage. I thought that during the 70s the Arkansas-made Gretsches were the guitars in most need of attention when you first got them. They (Super Chet, Country Club, etc.) were nice guitars--once you worked them over. Even then, the necks seemed to need seasonal attention more than most guitars. Oh, and 70s Fenders were apt to arrive from Fullerton with bridges and nuts so misaligned that the strings weren't necessarily _over_ the neck.
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Yes, many times. The answer: "choice" is a marketing term. That's not why they do it. They do it because they can get away with it. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I think you're missing the point. Even with a fret dressing, most gibson and heritage guitars cannot be made to play like a high end ibanez guitar. With a planing and refret, yes. The higher end gibsons are a little better but not by much.Out of the box perfection is not high on my list of requirements in a guitar. I've had to relentlessly tweak the setup on every guitar I've cared about, whether new, used, or vintage. And personally, I'd rather have an aftermarket fret-dressed Gibson than a "perfect" factory Ibanez any day of the week. Ibanez frets might be perfect*, but I dislike the neck profiles and often the string spacing is more narrow than it needs to be given the nut width.
*Two Chinese made Ibbies I've owned are very far from that, but I realize we're discussing MIJ only.
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I think there are a few elements to this. First, I think both Gibson and Fender (based on my experience buying them, and conversations with music store owners) assume that the dealer is the final QA/QC step; if you buy from a good dealer, you get a properly set-up guitar (e.g., the ones I've bought, from smaller "boutique" style shops rather than a GC or Sam Ash had G+P's and full set-ups done before I was allowed to take them out of the store). One of the problems we now face is that good dealers are harder to find, for a variety of reasons, including G + F making it harder and harder for smaller shops to hold dealerships.
I think this goes back to a history of differences in quality-management and production practices between Asian companies (especially Japanese ones, built from the ground up post-war on Deming principles) and many old-line American manufacturers. Japanese manufacturers basically don't let products with defects and which aren't end-user ready out of the factory and historically have had many more QA/QC steps built into production processes than American companies making similar products. Certainly, over the last ca. 25 years American manufacturing has changed, and in many sectors there are TQM systems comparable to the best in Japan, but there are niches where that's not the case.
I think Gibson also pours so much time and money into finishes (modern Gibsons are typically visually stunning) that something else has to give.
John
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i don't agree john. First of all, as i've mentioned, even with a fret level most gibsons cannot be made to come close to the high end ibanez setup. Secondly, the finishes on gibson aren't all stunning. Perhaps on the custom shop instruments but ibanez finishes are just as good if not better.
The real explanation is the politically incorrect one. It's that the workers who man the assembly line for gibson are not very skilled. Gibson uses minimum wage workers who go through training workshops to assemble and finish their guitars. But even on the custom shop instruments which are plek'd and presumably handled by luthiers and not minimum wage factory workers, the ibanez guitars still seem to play better.
The idea that gibson is allowing for in-store setup is just a marketing statement.
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Jack,
I can't speak to "most" Gibsons, only the ones I've played (maybe not a representative sample) that played perfectly post-set-up. Also, I don't think allowing for shop set-up is just marketing statement -- I think it's the actual practice (and I have had dealers tell me this). But it's not one I defend, especially since so many dealers don't actually do the set-ups. I've tried Gibsons at Guitar Center that had issues; not at Rudy's.
As to the visuals, first, I don't quite grasp what's custom-shop vs non-custom-shop with Gibson, so maybe I am thinking disproportionately of custom shop guitars. So I'll just say that in my observation a LP or 335 hanging on the wall these days has way more flame and much better depth and subtlety to the finish than anything from, say, the Norlin era. In keeping with the oft-repeated-around-here claim that most of these guitars are sold to people who don't really play them, it strikes me as plausible that Gibson is making a playability/visuals trade-off in their QA/QC investments. I don't really see that as being contradicted by the claim that they don't pay for high-end luthiers.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 04-20-2015 at 01:43 PM.
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I have only owned 5 brand new Guilds, all since 2012, and all perfect out of the box with no neck or fret work ever having been done. All of the prior Guilds I have owned were bought from others, so I can't speak to the factory setup. I did own a 1956 Guild CE-100 that sat in a Colorado music store unplayed and unsold for over 50 years. It was first bought by a person in CT, and then traded to me a few years later. To my knowledge nothing has ever been done to its neck or frets since leaving CO, and there was nothing that could have been done to make the playability better. I sold it to help fund a new Guild AP, and I am hoping to own it again one day, but I can't swing it at this time. Originally Posted by jzucker
With all that said, I have owned 3 new Japanese-made guitars: two Epiphone Elitist models, and one Gretsch Brian Setzer G6120SSUGR. Two needed no work, and one Elitist got sent back right away due to a bad neck or neck set. I have also owned a Japanese-made Gretsch G6120JR with a twisted neck, but perhaps the Japanese-made Ibanez guitars are of a higher quality than other brands from Japan.
Ultimately, it's all personal experience and preference. For those that buy only that which they play in a shop it should be rare that a guitar from a reputable company has any significant issues. For those like me that typically buy from online dealers, or used from others without the benefit of being able to first inspect the guitar, my personal experience has been best with Guild.
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Another extremely satisfied Ibanez player here.
I have owned Ibanez's from China, Korea, and Japan (AG75, AS80, AS120, AS180, GB10). I actually just stumbled (luckily) into the 1982 GB10 the other day while looking to sell something else. I'm not really able to describe in technical terms anything about the necks, but each one of my Ibanez's was one of the most comfortable necks I've ever played, with the AS180 and now the GB10 definitely a step ahead of the rest. I felt a big difference in size/shape going between the AS and the GB but the quality and stability of each were/are impressive.
I've also had a Hofner with a great neck, a Peerless with an OK neck, and several Fenders that had necks (I'll leave it at that). The Gibsons I've played never really felt right in my hands, usually too big for me, but I can't comment on the quality. I've also played about 15 different PRS guitars over the past few years and found all of those necks to be consistently reliable. My only complaint with the PRS's is that intonation over the 12th fret always seems to be extra touchy. I've even been able to play some of the PRS's with solid Brazilian Rosewood necks and those feel great! But way out of my $league.
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I've got an Ibanez AK105SM for about £400 and she's a beauty. The bodywork and finish are perfect. I bought a brand new Gibson Les Paul and that was also a nice guitar, albeit that a set up was needed. Both guitars are well made and similar in terms of quality and build (the Ibanez is probably slightly better build quality). However, the price difference is enormous. As such, the Ibanez wins hands down in terms of quality and value for money. I've since sold the Gibson.
I read that the AK105SM guitars were a limited batch made by Chinese master craftsmen. As the labour costs in that part of the world are ridiculously low, it may be that the guitar craftsmen didn't face the same time and production pressures as the current Gibson factory workers and, in addition, may have been better trained in their art. I wonder.
Interestingly, I kept hold of a 'rock monster' Ibanez RG550 (Desert Yellow) which I bought around 1990. This has the best neck of any guitar I've played to date. It is perfectly dressed, shaped and a pleasure to play. Thing is, I'm scared to use it on the gig in case the Jazz police show up or the audience throw tomatoes at me because I don't play Smoke on the Water or Sweet Child of Mine (did that in the 1980s!).
In conclusion, even if the Ibanez guitars don't have better necks, they're definitely better value for money by a distance.
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From the other end of the spectrum.....I recently bought an inexpensive Ibanez, one of the little semi-hollow jobs that only went for 400.00.
The primary reason I chose it over the other under-1000 dollar guitars on the wall was the neck. Felt very much like my Taylor acoustic....
All the Epiphone models had gloss-finished necks that felt clunky by comparison.
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My Ibanez guitars have all had great necks and a sort of rock-solid reliable feel to them. But still I like my Gibsons better. They got the mojo when they get it right! But it is truly amazing how many Gibsons that come through the local dealer are a mess.
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gibson guitars have their mojo but ibanez has their own identity with the GB10. Nothing gibson makes sounds like it and it's used on thousands of recordings in its own right. The other higher end ibanez guitars are variations on the gibsons though and I agree. Like the metheny guitars are takes on a 175 and the other benson guitars are takes on an smaller L5 and the sco is a take on the 335. In general I prefer the gibsons for sure but do love the gb10.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
Mine doesn't have a zero fret and I've never seen one that does. Are you referring to the brass insert of the nut? I don't consider that a zero fret, I see it as a nut made of a compound material. I think this reduces the string sticking in the slot. My GB10 tunes easier and stays in tune better than any other guitar I have ever owned.
Now if I was just 100% happy with the tone. Something I wondered about tonight, looking at mine, is lowering the neck pickup. It's right up high against the strings, but there is enough room to fill the screw holes for the neck bracket and redrill 1/8" lower, which would possibly tame the hot pickup output a bit, reduce the microphonic issue of picks tapping the cover and maybe give the tone a little more airiness.
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This was why I got a Vigier, the carbon fiber strip in the neck replaces the truss rod and need for constant adjusting. That and they take their time curing the wood whereas other companies will use artificial heat. Has a zero fret too.
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Its odd that a $2600 Gibson LP es has such poorly composed fret work as compared to the PM2 or for that matter Af95. The box needs to be playable not just shiny with a notable name on the arch.
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one thing a luthier recently told me is that ibanez necks have a slight downward slope as the strings go over the body. This eliminates the tailrise that typically occurs on archtops when the top expands as it ages. Gibson and heritage do not do this so the fingerboard tends to rise at the end and frequently necessitates planing.
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Interesting and long thread.
I'm another huge fan of high end Ibanez guitars...and for the same reasons others have stated...fine necks, consistent quality and excellent interpretation on other guitar designs. My '78 GB10 still plays like a new guitar, with very low action,a stable neck and sweet tone. The same applies to my '96 GB10 (that I bought new and has never needed a set-up); a perfect GB12 (formerly owned by Steve Miller) and other Ibanez gits.
They do what I wish other guitar makers should do...deliver a quality product out the door!
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