Gibson L-5 with rosewood fretboard?

[jzucker]

Blocking ff would be a mistake. He's an out spoken and opinionated guy . . (unlike myself) . . but, he's more often than not substantive. I've got no problem with him. I think he's kinda cool. If you find him to be offensive . . let him know. He'll dial it back. We're all friends in a tight knit community. Let's act like it.

obviously there's a screw or two loose in there. Better to not be tempted to reply.

[fumblefingers]

yeah sure.

speaking of loose screws, isn't it time to tell us about your 1000th troublesome affordable semi-hollow?

just kidding of course.

[Jabberwocky]

thank you!!!!

My absolute pleasure, Jack.

[jim dandy]

Lots of discussion last night .

Anyway, let's get back to Gibson L5s....

So does anyone know if Gibson will go back to ebony for L5s? Most of the new ones look like ebony, but I guess I need ask to make sure it is not laminated ebony, richlite, or rosewood.

>>> any recommendations of other brands/makers where I can get a guitar with the L5CES tone, with a solid ebony fretboard, a traditional non-rubbery/sticky nitro finish, and around a 2.5 inch body depth?

Hi Jim,

In my opinion many are very wed to their interpretations of guitars (and apparently of law as well).

So I think there is a significant "only an L5 sounds like an L5" view out there.

Or "only a 25.5 scale sounds like somethingorother".

I am of the opinion, that strings, picks, playing style, the amp, etc. can make one L5 sound sound nothing like another. And that there are maple-topped guitars, 24.75 scale guitars, and other variations that can get you to the big-box sound.

Does it have to be new?

Have you talked to any luthiers who build archtops?

Have you tried things like an LS-17 to test the open ears waters?

Have you considered a Guild X-500 for lush-o-sity?

And what about the 700 different Heritages all called Eagle-something?

Does the budget narrow the options?

Chris

Chris - Thanks for the input! What maple topped 24.75 scale guitars did you have in mind that would get me the L5 sound? I've tried a whole lot of them and was never able to get there. Same with changing strings, picks, playing style, amps, etc. If there is a way to get an ES-175 or a Sadowsky JH to sound like an L5, please let me know and I'll be extremely happy!

To answer your questions: The guitar does not have to be new. I have talked to and had luthiers build me guitars before, with mixed results. I'm not eager to go down that route again if possible. I've tried the entire Sadowsky line twice in Roger's shop and currently own a Jim Hall. I've found that all the Sadowskys, including the LS-17, sound similar (very good) but not much like an L5. I tried a Guild X-700 years ago but don't remember it well. Never tried a Guild X-500. Since it has a laminate top, I didn't think it would get me into L5 sonic territory. I have tried the Heritage Eagle models and the good ones do sound close to an L5. As for budget, I don't want to spend more for a guitar with an L5 sound than an actual Gibson L5.

As always, any advice is appreciated!

[AlainJazz]

The Sadowsky's sound very very good but nothing like an L5. I have a JH and an L5. They are totally different. I do believe that you can get an L5-ish sound out of other cheaper alternatives but I got tired of trying out many guitars before realizing that the easiest (albeit expensive) path is just to get an L5. If you have access to lots of guitars or you are willing to experiment a lot, you will find something eventually. Otherwise, save a little longer, sell your sadowsky and get the real thing. Just my 2 cents.

[jzucker]

the guild x500 and the ibanez gb200 actually do get you a similar tone to an L5 but nothing has the dynamic range of an L5 that doesn't have a solid top IMO. I had an L5 and a GB200 at the same time. When I was playing the GB200 I always thought that it sounded very much like an L5 but then when I'd switch over to the L5, it just had that super dynamic range that let you dig into it without it bottoming out. The thinner bodied guitars don't do that like the thick body guitars either. I had a pair of heritage eagles at the same time. One is the thinline that I still have and the other was the full size one and the full sized one had the dynamic range of the full L5. The thinline is more compressed but IMO still sounds way more like an L5 than any eastman or sadowsky or even the guild.

I've had the same experience with the custom guitars. I've owned a bunch of them and my feeling is that you are paying boutique prices for the appointments. I recently had a very well known luthier's hand made guitar in the house and while the workmanship and appointments were incredible, I was very disappointed in the tone. On sheer tone alone, I'll still stick with something that I can hear up front rather than buy on speculation.

Might be different if you have $20k to spend and are getting something that is a tried and proven commodity

[iim7V7IM7]

I've had the same experience with the custom guitars. I've owned a bunch of them and my feeling is that you are paying boutique prices for the appointments. I recently had a very well known luthier's hand made guitar in the house and while the workmanship and appointments were incredible, I was very disappointed in the tone. On sheer tone alone, I'll still stick with something that I can hear up front rather than buy on speculation.

Might be different if you have $20k to spend and are getting something that is a tried and proven commodity

My experience commissioning custom instruments has been the opposite of yours and nothing but positive. All three of my electrics are now custom luthier instruments.

Gibson street prices for L5s is sufficiently high and variable for new instruments that experienced luthier made options are a viable alternative (at least for me). I don't think you need to go 2x the cost an L5 as you suggest (e.g. $20k) to get a custom instrument that is "tried and proven". Luthiers make decisions based on the needs of an individual player and wood set they are working with as a basis and factories work to averages and specs. That is why you need to play so many factory guitars to find "the one" when trying factory instruments.

[jzucker]

2x the street price for an L5 would be closer to $10k

[iim7V7IM7]

I was responding to your $20k comment. What is the street price for a new L5 CES or Wes these days?

[jzucker]

I was responding to your $20k comment. What is the street price for a new L5 CES or Wes these days?

you can get a used L5 or Wes for about $5k if you're patient.

The problem I have with the custom builds is that after you're through customizing the woods, the pickups, the shape, width, scale and all that, what do you have in the end? I've seen way too many of these that are just a bizarre project gone wrong.

The recent hand made archtop I played had a small body, lots of customized woods and was a gorgeous collector's piece but didn't sound very good, was neck heavy and had a tailrise that needed planing and refretting. It was an example of customizing an instrument to the point of it being a failed experiment IMO.

I have played a lot of the super expensive, hand made instruments that were gorgeous but didn't really sound that good either. I once played a $25k benedetto next to a '70s L5 and thought that the L5 smoked it. Yeah, i know it's all subjective but when going for a Wes tone, nothing sounds like Wes like an L5 IMO.

Why spend thousands more on a copy? So you can get a customized pickguard, tailpiece, a hand wound pickup and custom finish? If you want an L5, get an L5.

Now if you've got the bread and you really just want a hand-tailored instrument, go for it but my contention is you won't necessarily end up with something that sounds better than an L5 or a 175.

[Flyin' Brian]

where have you been?

after Obama took their wood.

Yeah right. They did nothing illegal at all.

[PTChristopher2]

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your response. If you have tried that many guitars and find none of them point in a direction you want to go, then an L5 it is I think.

The part that often intrigues me is the considerable variety amongst L5's over the decades, both in top thickness and, in my opinion, sound.

But I definitely understand that to many/most they are a single sound, and notably heard as distinguishable from others.

I wish you best of luck in finding the L5 that works for you.

In my opinion, I would not bother with the 17" Guilds, or an Epi Broadway (Elite, Elitist, or MIK), or anything else. In my opinion it is just a matter of looking for a Gibson L5-branded guitar proposition that works for you.

O&O, as the political jackass micro-comments continue it seems.

Chris

[jzucker]

I dunno Chris. I have owned L5s from 4 different decades. '60s, '70s, '80s and '90s.

Every single one sounded like an L5 should. Every single one of them could absolutely nail the wes montgomery tone.

Did they all sound the same? Heck no. But something in the formula for an L5 CES sure is repeatable despite the differences in quality control, pickups, bridges, top thickness, cutaways, neck profile, the "horrible" state of ebony fingerboards, etc.

And whatever heritage is doing with the eagle, it seems to follow the same formula and pretty much nails the same tones and dynamics.

I'm sure others are capable of following the same formula but IMO, most luthiers want to further the state of the art and begin making changes to the "standard". For example, I have played several d'aquistos and benedettos and several other high end archtops that in many ways were much better instruments than the L5 but many of the improvements cannot get the L5 tone.

It may be that like vacuum tubes, the L5 tone - warts and all - is indelibly imprinted upon those of us with a fetish for the Wes tone.

[iim7V7IM7]

A couple thoughts...

1) I asked you the new street price. It is not a fair comparison to look at used prices "if your patient".
2) I suppose if the historic factory guitar that was played by your idol is what you want, its what you want.
3) Good luthier made archtops are more than just "copies" of Epiphone, Gibson and Strombergs designs
4) You need to choose an experienced luthier with a good track record who listens and suggests
5) Builders like Steve Andersen, John Buscarino, or Bill Comins will all produce great sounding balanced guitars

To be fair, a classic Riverside L5/Standel Wes tone is not what I was not a sound that I was trying for (nor most custom luthiers that I can think of). I don't think Bob B. goes for that sound either. You are looking for a very specific vintage Gibson sound.

My $.02

you can get a used L5 or Wes for about $5k if you're patient.

The problem I have with the custom builds is that after you're through customizing the woods, the pickups, the shape, width, scale and all that, what do you have in the end? I've seen way too many of these that are just a bizarre project gone wrong.

The recent hand made archtop I played had a small body, lots of customized woods and was a gorgeous collector's piece but didn't sound very good, was neck heavy and had a tailrise that needed planing and refretting. It was an example of customizing an instrument to the point of it being a failed experiment IMO.

I have played a lot of the super expensive, hand made instruments that were gorgeous but didn't really sound that good either. I once played a $25k benedetto next to a '70s L5 and thought that the L5 smoked it. Yeah, i know it's all subjective but when going for a Wes tone, nothing sounds like Wes like an L5 IMO.

Why spend thousands more on a copy? So you can get a customized pickguard, tailpiece, a hand wound pickup and custom finish? If you want an L5, get an L5.

Now if you've got the bread and you really just want a hand-tailored instrument, go for it but my contention is you won't necessarily end up with something that sounds better than an L5 or a 175.

[jzucker]

agreed on all points except #1. All's fair in love and guitar prices. How is it not fair to compare the street price of any L5 vs a custom build? That's the whole point. When I decide to buy a guitar, price is a huge constraint.

A couple thoughts...

1) I asked you the new street price. It is not a fair comparison to look at used prices "if your patient".
2) I suppose if the historic factory guitar that was played by your idol is what you want, its what you want.
3) Good luthier made archtops are more than just "copies" of Epiphone, Gibson and Strombergs designs
4) You need to choose an experienced luthier with a good track record who listens and suggests
5) Builders like Steve Andersen, John Buscarino, or Bill Comins will all produce great sounding balanced guitars

To be fair, a classic Riverside L5/Standel Wes tone is not what I was not a sound that I was trying for (nor most custom luthiers that I can think of). I don't think Bob B. goes for that sound either. You are looking for a very specific vintage Gibson sound.

My $.02

[iim7V7IM7]

Regarding comparing used factory instrument prices to new custom luthier made instrument prices you are not making a fair comparison. We simply disagree. I was under the impression that a new L5 CES were $9-$11k new (street price). My point was at that price, I think there are excellent custom alternatives to an L5 to be considered by someone looking for a carved archtop.

BTW, which archtop luthiers have you commissioned custom instrument with?

agreed on all points except #1. All's fair in love and guitar prices. How is it not fair to compare the street price of any L5 vs a custom build? That's the whole point. When I decide to buy a guitar, price is a huge constraint.

[Jabberwocky]

I was responding to your $20k comment. What is the street price for a new L5 CES or Wes these days?

Between $8950 and $9278 for a 2013 L5CES Natural and between $7543 and $7820 for a 2013 L5CES Wes Montgomery Natural. Vintage Sunburst finish is between $800 and $1000 lower across the board.

Since 2009, there has been about a $1000 price increase in the street price. Even the L-4CES Natural Mahogany carries a MAP of $7165! I remember when it had a MAP of about $5065 with a street price of between $4153 and $4305.

[jzucker]

Regarding comparing used factory instrument prices to new custom luthier made instrument prices you are not making a fair comparison. We simply disagree. I was under the impression that a new L5 CES were $9-$11k new (street price). My point was at that price, I think there are excellent custom alternatives to an L5 to be considered by someone looking for a carved archtop.

BTW, which archtop luthiers have you commissioned custom instrument with?

WTF is fair?!? Price is price. If i can get an L5 for $5k, that's $5k. Just take a look at Gryphon Stringed Instruments. That'll give you a fair idea of the going rate for an L5.

[iim7V7IM7]

Methinks thou doth protest too much...

Despite your dramatic "WTF is fair" statement, this isn't an esoteric concept; nor is it unique to guitars.

It is not a fair comparison to cite a used price for one instrument (or any item for that matter) against a new price for another. Used is used and new is new. This type of comparison ignores the condition of the item or any manufacture's warranty afforded to an original owner as factors of consideration supporting its valuation.

The fair comparison in my view is the $8-$10k retail street price (not MAP) for a new L5 CES is to compare against purchasing a new custom luthier made instrument in a similar price range.

WTF is fair?!? Price is price. If i can get an L5 for $5k, that's $5k. Just take a look at Gryphon Stringed Instruments. That'll give you a fair idea of the going rate for an L5.

[Jabberwocky]

I guess what Jack is saying is that it is easier to find a used L-5CES than a used custom luthier made guitar of the same ilk. If you want an L-5CES, you don't necessarily have to buy a new one since used ones are quite readily available whereas if you want a custom luthier made guitar in the same mould as the L-5CES, you almost always have to buy a new one since used ones such as the Bill Comins 17" with inset humbuckers are quite hard to come by. So, in that sense, it is fair to compare a used L-5CES to the price of a new custom luthier-made taking availability into account.

As an illustration, between December 2013 and February 2014, I have seen four L-5CES Wes Montgomery for sale used for $4650 (1996 VSB), $4850 (2000 VSB), $5200 (1997 Natural), $6495 (2012 Natural) and one L-5CES, $5495 (2012 Black). There are others that I have missed. So, they are not in short supply if you want an L-5CES and not require that it be new.

PS And I forgot to account for the used 1998 L-5CES VSB that 2bop got for $2500!

[Hammertone]

I used to have a lovely L-5WES.
When I want that sound, I just play one of these:

[Jabberwocky]

I used to have a lovely L-5WES.
When I want that sound, I just play one of these:

Oh yeah, I would imagine it would commonly be played by someone who looks like this:




or this, in a suit-and-tie-required event






PS Love good auld Marty Feldman. My childhood hero. Serious.

[iim7V7IM7]

You don't need to convince that something that was made by the thousands for decades is more available used vs. something that only a few hundred was made over a few decade period. Understood.

I think this silly discussion began when I objected to the notion that custom guitars are about "boutique prices for appointments" and not tone and that going that route requires having "$20k to spend" to get something that is a "tried and proven commodity".

My point was with Gibson factory guitars are now approaching $8-$9k, and that one does not need to pay 2x that to get a great luthier made instrument. Jack said it was more like 4x and that was when I said wait a minute. I still say this is not true and that there are many luthier made instruments for $8-$12k range.

The whole discussion of what sound you are after is a different question. If you want to sound like an L5, get an L5. Other than guys like Mark Campellone or Jim Triggs, most custom luthiers are not going for the L5 sound. There are many other sounds in Jazz. In fact, if I think back over the last 5-years to all the local shows in NJ that I have attended (Alden, Bruno, Pizzarelli, Taylor and Vignola) no one was playing an L5.

Comparing used prices of items to new items is a biased comparison. It is no different than saying I found a used car of a model that costs less than the new car of another model when both cars new are close in their price.

I guess what Jack is saying is that it is easier to find a used L-5CES than a used custom luthier made guitar of the same ilk. If you want an L-5CES, you don't necessarily have to buy a new one since used ones are quite readily available whereas if you want a custom luthier made guitar in the same mould as the L-5CES, you almost always have to buy a new one since used ones such as the Bill Comins 17" with inset humbuckers are quite hard to come by. So, in that sense, it is fair to compare a used L-5CES to the price of a new custom luthier-made taking availability into account.

As an illustration, between December 2013 and February 2014, I have seen four L-5CES Wes Montgomery for sale used for $4650 (1996 VSB), $4850 (2000 VSB), $5200 (1997 Natural), $6495 (2012 Natural) and one L-5CES, $5495 (2012 Black). There are others that I have missed. So, they are not in short supply if you want an L-5CES and not require that it be new.

PS And I forgot to account for the used 1998 L-5CES VSB that 2bop got for $2500!

[jzucker]

In these economic times, I know guys who paid for custom amps, guitars and pedals and paid a handsome deposit and never got anything back.

I know guys who bought guitars from well known luthiers that came out horribly - with design defects, unforseen flaws and/or results that didn't match what was ordered - and in many cases the luthiers didn't have the capital to refund their money or make them a new guitar which was correct.

And additionally, i once ordered a custom instrument from a luthier that is talked about on these forums quite a bit and it was supposed to be built in a year and after 18 months he still hadn't started it. I was able to get a full refund luckily (and this was before the financial crisis) so I'd be extremely hesitant to plunk down 1/3 of the price of a custom instrument these days.

And I recently received a custom instrument from a luthier. The instrument wasn't made for me but was spec'd in advance according to the most popular features. I bought it sight unseen based on reviews of plenty of cats on this forum and on TGP as well as some big name jazz musicians i know. I got the guitar. It was extremely heavy. Must have been 9 lbs. It was extremely neck heavy. Dived so bad I couldn't balance it standing without constantly shifting it up every few minutes. It was extremely bright and thuddy sound (no surprise , given the weight) and also the fretwork was terrible (many of the really great luthiers are not the best fret levelers). Ergonomically, the upper horn was squared off and cut into my chest. The issues just went on and on. The only thing that saved me was that I had *NOT* custom ordered the instrument. Because of that I was allowed to return it for a full refund. His normal return policy is no refunds.

Anyway, if I found the right luthier and the right guitar I wouldn't hesitate to order something but IMO, there are so many great guitars already built that to think that something I might conceive of would be better than the tens of thousands already made is a luxury I feel I can do without. I can't imagine that my thoughts and desires are so unique that I have to get an instrument custom made to my every spec.

[iim7V7IM7]

Agreed.

It is indeed an indulgence having an instrument made bespoke to one's playing needs. The last 5-10% in quality of any item costs dearly. Most individual archtop luthiers will only build a few hundred instruments in their career. It is a very small target market for them. Most players as you said so well, are served well by historic based factory models. My thought was simply that factory models from Gibson new pricing is approaching the point where one should also consider the alternative when investing that amount of money.

I read the same nightmare stories that you do. There are unfortunately, many of them. Perhaps I have been lucky or perhaps I did a good job selecting makers? I have had 3-custom electrics made and 4-custom amps made. All were delivered on time, communication throughout the wait period and build and I have been pleased with the product that was delivered. I currently have 2-acoustic commissions ongoing as well.

I totally understand buying Gibson archtops used, particularly when there are many available or new options from the boys in Kalamazoo out there as well.