Gibson ES-150 Archtop and Alternatives

[campusfive]

Mine's not super V'd, though I suspect it's been shaved slightly. My friend's is the normal V profile of the model/era. Another friend has a killer 1936 L-50 he's modded into an ES-150, and it has the same V profile. I don't mind them.

[archtopeddy]

My 30's ES-150CC has a V neck. As far as I recall, most 30's ES-150s I've seen have V necks. Now I have eight guitars with V necks, and of all of them, the 150 has the thinnest and the most "modern" feeling neck. In fact, if I were comparing against other guitars, it's more like my Eastman AR371LCG (which doesn't have a V neck). I suspect that at some point my neck might have been shaved down a bit. I too prefer a bigger neck, and wouldn't mind if my 150 had a bit more girth.

It seems other 30's ES-150s I've tried have had bigger necks. Some of the folks who have multiple examples might be able to give you a better idea.

[Bromando]

My ES150 has as about as big and sharp of a "V" as you can get... I love a hard V neck, my Benedetto also was custom made with a prewar style V. The only guitar I have with a harder/bigger V is my 1927 C.F. Washburn Parlour guitar... THAT is big!

Also, I am also curious about other ES150 owners top thickness... I've read elsewhere here that a 150 is supposed to be "uncarved" or left flat on the bottom of the top to provide support for the pickup, but I'm calling BS... I don't think my guitar's top is particularly thick, though it is definitely braced like the picture above from ICR. It is pretty loud acoustically for a routed pickup guitar!

Johnathan, when you say you think your knobs were replaced is that because they are both black with no big arrow on top? Because mine are like that, and other 1937s I've seen... Think maybe they came like that, my guitar's knobs look like they've been on forever!

[archtopeddy]

I'm curious about the same thing. That's why I asked a similar question a few input before this one.

I don't think the 30's ES150 had thicker top but I believe they were made with the X bracing so they could take advantage of the cross section in order to be able to mount the bottom bolt. I think f-hole L-50s of the time period have ladder bracing vs the X bracing but I'm not sure since I don't have an L-50 from the time period to examine. It would make sense to me that in order to mount the CC pickup with its unusual perpendicularly aligned cobalt magnets, they designed the triangular bolt pattern to fit the bottom bolt to the cross in the X-brace or the strongest part of the top. Of course, this could all be wrong; it's just speculation on my part: maybe they did "thicken" the carved top... Does anyone know? Also, can anyone confirm whether the f-hole L-50s of the period had ladder or X-bracing? Thanks!

[Bromando]

L50s had parallel bracing, NOT ladder bracing. Ladder bracing, as I understand, is what old parlour guitars have with only "perpendicular" braces...

The pictures ICR posted above in this thread are accurate to a 30s L50 and ES150, if you shine a light in you f holes and look in the jack of your 150 you will clearly see it is braced like the picture. I know it's hard to see in these guitars otherwise, the usual "phone in the f hole" trick doesn't work with these tiny f holes...

[archtopeddy]

Thanks Bromondo for the clarification about parallel vs ladder bracing. Looking at the above pictures, it's clear that the ES-150 has the x bracing, but I don't know if the L-50 originally did or not. Based on the color of the woods, in the picture by lcr where he shows how he added an additional cross-brace for the two top holes, it appears that the x-bracing may also have been an addition. Perhaps lcr could clarify this point for me.

Also, I may have found answers to my questions in a a great 2015 thread about how Archtop Fred converted a black L-50 into an ES-150. In the writeup and pictures, Archtop Fred noted that the L-50 has parallel bracing vs. the x bracing of his ES-150 (see quotes below),and perhaps to glean more information regarding top thickness, he notes that Daniel Slaman, who did the modifications, said that he didn't need to reinforce the top because the Gibson tops were thick enough to not require the additional support. Again, a word or two from Archtop Fred could help add more details.

Here's quotes from Archtop Fred in his L-50 conversion thread:

"I suspect the little difference I hear in the resonance with my original '38 ES 150 could come from the bracing (parallel vs. X)... I've asked Daniel if he has reinforced the tabletop where he's cut the wood for placing the CC PU. He's answered me that it is not necessary because Gibson tabletops are particularly thick and sturdy in this area."

Here's the link to the entire conversation: (BTW, Archtop Fred, excellent work on the conversion!)

NDG: Gibson L50, Black Special 1937, converted into ES 150 CC

[Fred Archtop]

Again, a word or two from Archtop Fred could help add more details.

Here is a pic showing the // bracing of my '37 L50 when Daniel cut the top.



Cheers.

[Hammertone]

Just for fun, here's what Gibson used to ship out in the 1960s. These came from an old Gibson Repair Depot:
Row 1: Johnny Smith | L-7
Row 2: Byrdland/L-5CES | L-4/L-50
Row 3: S-400 (removed from an older guitar)

[Greentone]

Fwiw, I have experience on both the pre-war Gibson ES-150 and the Recording King Roy Smeck. Both are Gibson and well made. The pickups are the same but for the bobbin, and are IMO the best jazz pickup ever.

I also had a Recording King M-5 (roughly an L7) with Smeck pickup added. It was superb. I would never turn down a Roy Smeck pickup...it's as good as the Gibson.

[Bromando]

Thanks for the pics guys!

Edit: I don't think my top is any thicker than your L50 there... There goes that myth!

Does anyone know what their L50/ES150 upper bout sizes are by any chance? Trying to get a case for this bad boy...

[archtopeddy]

Does anyone know what their L50/ES150 upper bout sizes are by any chance?

Mine (late 30's ES-150) is 11 3/8 inches across at the upper bout.

[icr]

This IS my 1937 L50 and the picture shows what may be typical of L50s of the period.
Items of note: kerfed braces. The braces are not symmetric. Mathematic equations in pencil. Cloth reinforcement around f-holes.

[icr]

Here is the back side of my 1937 L50 after repair. At some time in the history of my guitar, the second brace from the top fell off and someone must have removed it through the sound hole. I had to make a new one.

[Bromando]

Hey guys, one more 30s 150 question here...

Do you guys know if these tailpieces are prone to snapping? I really hate trusting the old “rolled steel hinge” style of tailpiece, do you know anyone who makes a modern repro that would be more solid?

It wouldn’t necessarily have to include the jack, I’m sure a L50 style tailpiece could be adapted to fit the existing jack?

Just wondering if these things snap like the old “frequensator” tailpieces do?

Edit: scroll to photos for second question, any input from another ES150 owner would be great!

[leroydobbs]

Not sure if it helps but I fitted that type to my Archtop Tributes replacing the stock zigzags. The ones I found are not exact replacements (to include the strap button) but I have no issues. Strung .014-..056


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[leroydobbs]

Got them from stew-Mac listed as plain trapeze for archtop gold or nickel I believe


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[Hammertone]

Replacement tailpieces come from various suppliers.

ABM makes high-quality Gibson-style ones in Germany, and those are sold in the US by Allparts, other online suppliers and various retailers. I have used these - they are high quality.
Gotoh makes high-quality Gibson-style ones in Japan, and those are sold in the US by Allparts, other online suppliers and various retailers. I have used these - they are high quality.

If not explicitly identified as ABM or Gotoh, most if not all of the rest are made in China, possibly Korea, and they are all garbage, made with pot metal, compressed dryer lint, melamine, dead kittens, etc. Caveat Emptor.

[Bromando]

An all part trapeze tailpiece will work as tailpieces but I don't think they can be modified to accommodate a 150 jack without drilling new holes.

Hammertone, you ever seen one of these L50/ES150 30s steel tailpieces fail, or just the brass ones?

[Hammertone]

I have never seen any Gibson-style ones fail, whether they are vintage, or current, from Advanced Plating, ABM or Gotoh. Of course, YMMV, so if anyone has seen one fail, please post a picture.

Old Frequensator tailpieces fail simply because the baseplate is too thin. ABM did make a version years ago, for the Hofner Model 462, that doesn't fail, because the base plate is much thicker.

Other than getting a custom fabbed one from Slaman, any of the available stock versions will need to be modified to accommodate the unique endpin jack area of the original ES-150s.

[Bromando]

Ok Got it, if you haven't seen one they probably don't go...

Also, is the tailpiece supposed to be touching the top like this? Can't tell if maybe the pressure against the top caused the small crack to the treble side of the tailpiece, or if these are always touching the top at this angle?

Maybe another 150/L50 owner can chime in?

[campusfive]

1) it's fine as is.
2) if it ever starts to crack, you just take it to a brass and woodwind repair guy, and it's ridiculously easy job for them.

If you search around on here, I posted about the on one my 1937 developing a crack, and I'm so grateful a forum member who ACTUALLY knew (was fsw6?) suggested going to somebody who repairs brass instruments.

Think about it - who else repairs metal (like brass) to not only look nice, but SOUND GOOD?

3) there's not replacement that will properly account for the barrel jack, no there's no other good solution.

[Bromando]

Interesting, I do know a good brass guy but these tailpieces are steel correct? Where did yours start to crack?

Also, is your's touching the top like mine is? Seems to be bent towards the top, haven't seen another like it and think it's supposed to clear the top by a hair....

[campusfive]

A brass and woodwind guy will know what to do whether its brass or steel. I don't bother to worry about it, myself.

And yours is fine as-is. Unless you can specifically hear it interfering with the top or otherwise rattling... leave it be.

[Bromando]

No, nothing like that.

It's more that I think it's actively cracking the top, much in the way the old L5 "Varitone" tension adjusters did. Though I would concur it might already be "as bad as it gets" in terms of the crack relieving the pressure.

I do trust your input though man, from what it seems you gig more expensive pre-wars than any one else I know haha. They are certainly meant to be played, it's just the only other old archtop I've gigged extensively was a '41 L7 with the beefy hinged tailpiece... This thing looks like it was made in some small jungle village out of pot metal in comparison.

[cosmic gumbo]

There are many pics online of Gibson tailpieces with the same bends near the hinged end as yours.