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I'm looking to get into gypsy jazz and I'm trying to decide whether to make do with guitars I have for now (solid body electrics or my ES-335), get a low-end gypsy jazz guitar (Gitane or similar), or get a high end like a Dupont. Or perhaps get something like a 175 or L-5 for this and of course other jazz styles.
I could write pages on the specifics of my thoughts. But I will just say that where I live (Albuquerque, New Mexico), the shops here do not carry these types of guitars. So trying before I buy isn't an option.
Also, I can afford a Dupont (or similar), but don't want to buy the most expensive just because I can. But I also don't want to go cheap and not get the full experience.
I've read the threads, in this forum, on these guitars and there seems to be a range of opinions. But I thought I'd start a fresh discussion.
I'll of course make up my own mind, but I'd appreciate the perspective of others that have made choices or are thinking about it themselves.
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09-28-2013 07:07 PM
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I normally say you can play ______ on anything, but only a gypsy jazz guitar sounds like a gypsy jazz guitar. If you can swing a Dupont, maybe try their low end model, the Nomade...but even the Gitanes sound like nothing else.
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My problem is I can "swing a Dupont", but just because I can, doesn't necessarily mean I should. I do like nice guitars, but there's a point where it becomes a bit too indulgent.
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I've seen your posts about your Gitane, and it seems you're very pleased with it.
One thing that complicates this is it seems the Gitanes do benefit from some re-work. Apparently a bridge upgrade is close to mandatory. Places like Djangibooks.com offer a short trial period, but not on guitars they've upgraded or performed a setup on (very understandable). Guitars like Duponts of course don't require upgrades.
So go for a Gitane, have some work done, and hope I like it. Get something like a Dupont and at least if I don't like it I can return it?
Another general concern is neck size. I'm really only familiar with electrics. I tend to like a good size neck (thickness front to back). Though I prefer something with less shoulder (for example, soft V or boat neck). A thin neck makes my hand cramp. On the other hand, there is such a thing as too big. I recently had an ES-335 neck shaved to take it down from a baseball bat to something more like a '59 Les Paul. I liked that thick neck well enough, but I started to notice my thumb would go numb.
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djangobooks.com ; All things Gypsy Jazz.
According to Michael, owner of the site, author and player/teacher... the best values are the Ciganos.. waaaay cheap and then the Altamira line.
Stepping up would be a guitar he just listed.. a maker from France and a former desciple of Dupont and other famous makers... $3550.
http://www.djangobooks.com/Last edited by bohemian46; 09-28-2013 at 08:53 PM.
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Not to sound like a dick but, well...there's a lot of tradition happy armchair quarterbacks in the gypsy jazz community...I'd let your ears decide if a bridge upgrade is "absolutely necessary" before going by internet wisdom.
Gypsy jazz infuriates me sometimes, as much as I love the music...it's maddening to me to see a large group of players blindly following the "tradition" put in place by a man who was nothing but a trailblazer his whole freakin' life!
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Tradition.. evolution... there are modern players who seem to "stick their necks out", just as there are guitar makers who are extending what Maccaferri did with/for Selmer..
Too bad Michael Dunn has stopped building.. stringed art.
Listen to some fot he sound clips as to what Mr Dunn's "gypsy" jazz guitars sound like..Last edited by bohemian46; 09-28-2013 at 09:15 PM.
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Absolutely there are...the REAL players.
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Me and a friend both ordered gitane dg-255's from Djangobooks a few months ago and got them shipped to Australia. We bought them 'as is' without selecting any of the extra set up options Michael offers on the Djangobooks website. Both these guitars have no problems whatsoever and play great - no fret buzz - nothing - action is 2.5mm which is considered 'low' for a GJ guitar, and probably a good height for someone new to the style.
From what you said about neck profile - I think the dg-255 would be fine - can't comment on the other models - but profile aside, they're big mothers, not only in scale length, but the width is significantly bigger than what you'd get on an archtop or dreadnought for example. And this is a petite bouche, not the grande bouche which is wider again.
Even though the Gitane is a fine entry level guitar, I don't know how they compare to a really high end axe like the Dupont's because I haven't played any - not just in tone, but playability.
If you're cashed up, why not fly up to Seattle and visit Michael and play a bunch of axes? Not saying you should do it, but that would be heaps fun and what you'd learn would be invaluable.
This might sound silly to some, but when I play it, I now put an earplug in my right ear - they're really loud, but not only that, the tone is bright and cutting so those high frequencies being smashed into your eardrum is a good way to permanently damage your hearing - I will happily endure ridicule from the purists for this last comment, lol!
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I've noticed others online saying how Michael thinks these and the Gitanes are a great value. But when I talked to him a few days ago, he made it sound like it would be a mistake to buy one. Literally said "I'll sell you one, but ..." Originally Posted by bohemian46
Now, I took what he was saying as trying to be as forthcoming as he could be about the range of instruments and the qualities, and what to expect. And perhaps I misunderstood him. So I want to be careful not to put words into his mouth.
But what he said sort of put a wet blanket on the idea of getting a Gitane. He was a little more positive about the Altamiras and thought the Dupont Nomades were a pretty good compromise between the less expensive guitars (Gitanes and Altamiras) and the much more expensive, Duponts etc.
Concerning the Nomades, I really can't get into the bolt on neck. Part of my interest in this is the traditional looking guitars. This is also why I would prefer a vintage tint finish. Of course it's the sound that matters most, but looks matter a lot to me (and I think most), so that is a factor as well.
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Those are some good data points. The idea of just ordering a Gitane, no mods, and seeing what I get is not a half bad option. Worst I'd be is out some shipping expense. And if I liked it, but still felt I want something done to it, no reason I couldn't send it back for work, or take it someplace else. Originally Posted by 3625
That would add considerably to the cost in $$ and time (something I have little of these days). I can swing a Dupont, but doesn't mean it wouldn't sting. Originally Posted by 3625
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Michael's a good guy, I really think so, but still in business and a salesman...I've found that what he'll say in person on the phone is not always the same as his ad copy on line. Not judging the cat, just telling it like it is.
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All good points above - even though I have lots of knowledge and experience with archtops, I'm the first to admit that selmacs are an entirely different world to which I know relatively little in comparison. Being in Australia, outside of Sydney, I'm in a similar position to the OP in that no-one around my immediate environment plays these things so it's a learning curve as to how it all works.
As far as I know, the Gitanes have a decent market share because they were one of the first budget brands to emerge when gypsy jazz started being popular again in the last 10-15 years'ish. If these days there's better brands in the same price range as the Gitanes then obviously that's the way to go. For me, I played a dg-255 in a shop in Sydney and thought it was fine for what I wanted, but they were asking way too much - so Djangobooks got my business - I chose the dg-255 as opposed to the other brands and models, because I knew what I was getting, and price wise it wasn't really that big a personal risk if I didn't like it.
What I was basically stating before was that given my experience of the 2 gitanes I've played from Djangobooks, they're well made and well set-up as is, and relatively cheap. So if you get one, you most likely won't have to immediately buy a new bridge, get a fret level, etc. etc.
To me, the situation these days with GJ guitars reminds me a bit of the way archtops were 10 - 20 years ago, in that back then, it was either a fairly cheap asian guitar like an epiphone of low to average quality, or a big price jump for the american guitars. Now it seems for archtops, that the middle ground has been filled in by companies like Eastman, D'Angelico and Peerless. So maybe these newly emerged GJ brands like Altamira are starting to do the same perhaps...
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I caught the GJG bug several years ago. My first purchase was a Gitane DG-250M the blond maple back and sides model with a solid top. One issue I haven't seen on the thread is deciding oval or D soundhole. The 250M is a oval and really had the cutting power for lead playing. It had a thin-ish neck compared to many of the GJG's even the other Gitanes. It became my travel guitar and I never had any issues with it. Also, these guitars really sing with the proper strings-Argentines are my choice however there are several brands out there.
I traded the Gitane off and within a few weeks I was missing a GJG. Although I could also afford a Dupont, I decided to go with the Manouche Latcho Drom Djangology. These are built to Dell'Arte specs in Asia (I would imagine China like the Gitanes, etc.) And by the way don't rule out the American made Dell'Arte guitars-they can be fantastic. I went with the D soundhole this time and glad I did.The D hole cuts fine for leads but is a bit warmer.. I also had a Big Tone pickup installed. I am very happy with it and feel it was a nice upgrade from the Gitane. I use it on a gig with a violinist and it has the bark I need. Big Tone through LR Baggs Para EQ into a Shertler Unico is my set up and it is a huge sound.
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I think DellArte guitars are hard to beat. I have an electric with f-holes (Swing 42) and it is really loud unamplified. Great tone from single pup attached to neck. Don't know if they still make the electrics, since the website is only showing acoustics.
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The reason I play gypsy jazz is the difference in language. I get to express myself with a different vocab than bebop. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
You have players like Adrien Moignard who plays gypsy jazz with a modern jazz language. That's good, because he is primarily a gypsy jazz player so he makes sure to get his modern jazz fix in gypsy jazz - smash two birds with one stone.
But for people who already play bebop or modern jazz, I don't see why anyone would want to use the same language in gypsy jazz. To me, the old school swing sound with the simple but effective vocab was what made me want to play it. A different form of expression. It's an avenue where diminished arpeggios spanning more than an octave actually sounds right and not out of place. Now you have folks who play diminished scales in gypsy jazz. Nothing wrong with that. But for me, I already do that when I play on an archtop with bebop folks.
So the Django imitation itself, the primitive retro language is what attracts me to the style because it's so radically different from the bebop sound.
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What's the neck like on this guitar? Originally Posted by SierraTango
Is this a typical 1-3/4" width at the nut?
I'm not sure I have any common ground to relate neck sizes with these. My experience is with electrics (Les Pauls and such). I like a good sized neck (thickness fingerboard to back, not width). Though prefer a soft V or boat-neck, though I realize these aren't that way.
I prefer not to have lot's of shoulder or cheek on the neck. I.E., round C shaped is preferred over a U-shape. But I don't want that C-shape to be thin.
I'd appreciate anything you might be able to say about the neck on your Manouche Latcho Drom.
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As noted by Mr. B, the specs on this type of guitar are rooted in tradition. And this means that the necks, in my experience, are closer to a classical guitar than a Les Paul. After all the orginal design was by Maccaferri and he was a classical guitar builder and performer. There are of course many exceptions however some of the vintage GJG's I have encountered have had really beefy necks and are like baseball bats.
So, yes the nut width is 1 3/4, this model Latcho Drom has a 670mm scale. This is pretty standard except the oval hole style guitars MAY have a longer scale. The neck profile is a very comfortable "C" shape not thin. It takes some getting used to after a Gibson style neck. But with the hours and hours you will spend with a GJG practicing it will soon be second nature.
One other quirk-some builders follow the French tradition of marking the frets differently than you may be used to. That is, they will place a inlay on the 10th fret instead of the 9th. I think Gitane does it that way, my DG-250M was that way as I recall. Most Euro built GJG's I've played are like that. Like anything you can get used to it however you may want to keep it in mind while shopping.
Djangobooks website states the Latcho Droms are made by Altimira. I have spoken to Michael several times in the past and always found him helpful and knowlegeable. I am no expert. You might want to connect with the guys at Caravan in Chicago also.
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Not to get off topic, but I really love this Gypsy jazz piece "For Sephora" by the Rosenburg trio, featuring guest player Bireli Lagrene. Bireli seems capable of anything, and his guitar solo in this rendition is soulful & inspired. Great job by all!!!
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I played a Latcho Drom for several years that I bought from Alain Cola at Del' Arte, who was great to deal with. It was a nice sounding and playing instrument, well made and with a distinct Gypsy sound. It was a great compromise at the time between the less expensive and the too expensive. The neck is typically wide but thin front to back. It does have a bit of a shoulder, so I guess I'd call it a U... play one first if possible. The fingerboard is fairly flat.
Part of the reason I chose the Latcho Drom was an earlier conversation w Michael Horowitz in which he said he felt they had more of the old Selmer sound than other Asian imports and that seemed to hold true for me as well. A few years later, I stumbled across a used 12-fret Shelley Park at Michael's that had a sound and feel that blew me away. He later sold the Latcho Drom for me.
FYI, Michael was always straight forward and professional with me as was Alain; I would deal with either one of them again.Last edited by AlohaJoe; 09-29-2013 at 09:40 PM.
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If you just want a gypsy guitar to test the waters, then a Cigano GJ-10 can actually work pretty well. I've heard some folks get some pretty good sounds out of the Paris Swing line as well.
If you're really into gypsy jazz, then a Dupont is what you want. I personally like the MDC-50, the notes just seem to leap out -- the sign of a really good gypsy guitar. I've also played an ALD that was really nice and ONE really good Dell Arte. Most of the Dell Arte's I've played are, frankly, dogs. I've never been impressed by any Shelly Park guitar I've played, though they've all been at least ok. Same for a Michael Dunn Stardust model.
In gypsy guitars, there are 2 qualities to look for:
1. Is it loud and cutting
2. Do the notes "leap out" when you hit the string.
I have a JWC Manouche 14fret Dhole and it's about 95% the tone of a Dupont MDC-50, though only about 85% the volume and the notes do NOT leap out, you have to bang the crap out of it. Of course, it was less than 1/2 the price of a Dupont (which I can't afford) so it's what I use. It stomps any asian guitar I've ever played though, and a few vintage gyspy guitars as well, so I'm fairly happy with it
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Check out Romanes tricked out Dupont
Or John Le Voi, he'll do what ever you want, for a price!
I did have a small hole Le Voi, great guitar maker, check him out..
http://www.johnlevoiguitars.co.uk/
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I recently attended a one week gypsy jazz workshop. Some people had luthier made Selmer/Macaferri style guitars, some had off-the-shelf Selmer/Macaferri style guitars and some people had flattops. The latter people could basically not be heard as the Selmer/Macaferri style guitars were all much louder. Obviously, the expensive, luthier handmade guitars were a bit "better" than the the off-the-shelf guitars. However, everybody agreed that, for example, the Gitane DG-300 (John Jorgensen) that one participant was playing sounded really good and was also all up there in terms of volume. The biggest differences then came from picking technique (and musical talent of course :-)). Those people who had the rest stroke technique really down were the ones that were the loudest and the most articulate.
I guess the bottom line is that those Gitanes are fine, good sounding, nicely playing and nice looking guitars with a very good price/performance ratio - beyond the law of diminishing returns seem to set in pretty quickly.
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As a guy who has played a real Selmer and some mid/high end luthier gits...
My Gitane is actually more like the Selmer...a little overbuilt, Loud and "barky," really needs to be hit to sound it's best.
The luthier builds (I've played several DuPonts and a Jean Barault, IIRC) are much more versatile...you can hit 'em hard and they bark, but they can be played with more dynamics too...a good one is a real work of art, beautiful to look at and a sound like no other guitar. But they aren't really any more "authentic." Just wonderful guitars.
btw, if you're ever in Chicago, you have to go to Caravan...this is where I played all this fun stuff.
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I sold my Gitane DG-255 recently. It was well-built, trouble free, and played smoothly, but it did not sound much like the best GJ guitars. I sold it because I could never get used to the long scale. I suppose I would get used to it if that is the only guitar I ever played, but I like my archies too much for that.
It's easy to get mired down in tradition. No disrespect for one of the greatest guitar players to ever lay three fingers on a fretboard, but there has been a lot of great music since Django passed in the 50s. Lot of people, including some Eurocats like Birelli Lagrene, have done some great stuff on a Gibson archtop. Dudley Hill from Pearl Django was a well-known L5 player. Hell, even Django played an Epiphone when he toured the U.S. with Ellington! Check out Tommy Emmanuel playing Gypsy jazz on Martin and Gibson 00s. He also uses a Godin 5th Avenue sometimes. He swings as well as anyone.
The bottom line: Go with what feels and sounds best to you. You don't have to follow the herd.
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"Michael's a good guy, I really think so, but still in business and a salesman...I've found that what he'll say in person on the phone is not always the same as his ad copy on line. Not judging the cat, just telling it like it is. "
Ditto.. I have had several conversations with Michael over the years...
He seems to bend the wat the wind blew last.
He has piblically and privately said the Ciganos are the closest to the Euro units in neck angle and playability and tone... the compromise is "compromised" quality of wood and components.
He said pass on the Gitane and go to the AltaMira...
He previously sold and bragged about the Latcho Drom.. but he got these through Alain Cola at Dell Arte and he gets the Alta Miras direct...
The Latcho Droms have upgraded hardware at a higher price.
I really like the Nomade.. however the price has increased over $400 in 2 years. I believe in that time the inflation rate was a total of 6% and the dollar Euro exchange is more favorable now than it was when they were $1700.
Many of these came through with ebony bits. Matter of fact, there are photos and videos on the web site...Recently I asked Michael if he could get one with ebony.. Two days later, he replied they are not available with ebony.
Also these are not made with sapele or African Mahogany or whatever they are calling this wood, it is very obvious to me it is ovangkol, a wood commonly used by Taylor on their 4 series guitars.
If the Nomade was a bolt on... perhaps.Last edited by bohemian46; 09-30-2013 at 07:57 PM.
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