$400 String Buzz Repair?

[Kojo27]

All I ask is that you tell me whether this level of string buzz is "normal" and "acceptable" in a GOOD solid-body guitar. Keep in mind that I put the guitar in a very good shop (shipped it there) to have this fixed. Before they shipped it back, they'd also done some really nice fret work, upgraded wiring, jack, etc. - to the tune of $400+.

When I sent it back and complained that it still buzzed, I was told that it plays "...BETTER than the $6000 PRS/Gibson models..." they have in their store. It came back exactly as I had shipped it.

I've already raised the action & tweaked the truss rod as much as I'm going to.

Is it me? I have little experience playing solid-body guitars, but can set them up when my vision isn't screwy, as it is right now.

It's a string buzz, for goodness sake. One string.

They said maybe I was picking too hard (you tell me!) or picking with the flat of the pick (I'm don't think I am...). I really can't pick much lighter than some of these pick strokes are.

Do $6000 Gibsons play this way, as they claimed? Is this buzzing "excessive" to you? They say it's normal. I don't have the experience to say, but I hope not. What do you guys think? That's all I need, thanks kindly.

[rpguitar]

Sounds like very obvious fret buzz to me, and looks like you're picking lightly. Do you know anything about guitar setup, or are you 100% dependent on the shop? I'd start my diagnosis with the nut slots and neck relief. Put a capo on the first fret and see if the open strings buzz then.

[Patrick2]

Kojo . . . while I not familiar with the song you were playing . . . I might have to disagree with Roger and agree with your repair shop. The string is going to oscillate no matter how gently you pluck it. If the neck is dead nuts straight, or God forbid has a slight back bow on the bass side . . . it's going to make contact with some of the frets as it oscillates. Try checking the relief on the neck. I realize that you said you already tweaked the truss rod . . but, maybe you need a slight bit of relief?? Anyway, unless you keep playing the same song that you played in that video . . . you just ain't gonna notice that buzz to often when you're plugged in and rockin'.

[Kojo27]

Sounds like very obvious fret buzz to me, and looks like you're picking lightly. Do you know anything about guitar setup, or are you 100% dependent on the shop? I'd start my diagnosis with the nut slots and neck relief. Put a capo on the first fret and see if the open strings buzz then.

Thanks for your response. I appreciate knowing it isn't just me.

I know the basics of truss-rod adjustment, setting intonation, adjusting action, etc. However, I am not a solid-body player (yet) and have so little experience with them that I don't feel it smart to start changing a lot of things, esp. when I've paid this shop to do it for me. I'm tempted to raise the action at the bridge just a hair and see what happens - couldn't hurt, right?

As far as neck relief goes, there is very little. Before sending it back the last time, I loosened the truss rod to the point that the buzzing stopped, but then the action was a mile high and everything felt horrible. If I didn't have so much money tied up in the thing I'd start cranking and all that, but I'd really hate to mess it up worse. Other than the 6th string buzz, the thing plays like a dream, really.

With a capo on the 1st fret, there is still string buzz. This is the problem, remember, for which I sent it to this shop in the very first place. 6th string buzzes. $500+ (w/shipping) later, it's exactly the same.

[Kojo27]

Kojo . . . while I not familiar with the sone you were playing . . . I might have to disagree with Roger and agree with your repair shop. The string is going to oscillate no matter how gently you pluck it. If the neck is dead nuts straight, or God forbid has a slight back bow on the bass side . . . it's going to make contact with some of the frets as it oscillates. Try checking the relief on the neck. I realize that you said you already tweaked the truss rod . . but, maybe you need a slight bit of relief?? Anyway, unless you keep playing the same song that you played in that video . . . you just ain't gonna notice that buzz to often when you're plugged in and rockin'.

Wonderful composition, aye Patrick? A John Cage piece. : )

I could put a bit of relief in the neck... but doggone it, I hate messing up a setup I paid so much for. The frets are dead level, glued in, polished, yada yada, and it's such a shame it does this. Wahhh! It's a pity party!!! Wah!! LOL!

[Kojo27]

That sounds like pretty bad fret buzz and pretty FLAT sounding to me. A stupid suggestion from me: perhaps it is buzzing because it is out of tune and hence the string is slack. Tune it up to pitch and see what happens.

Good observation, jab, but I've tried replacing the string (it goes dead from tuning up and down, up and down) - and it is tuned to pitch, or very close - check it with your guitar. I'm not plugged in here - just got the little microphone so I can pick up the sound.

: )

KJ

[Kojo27]

Scratch stupid suggestion. Your E2 string is on pitch according to my Sonic Research strobe tuner.

Not a stupid suggestion - much appreciated, actually.

[rpguitar]

Let the guitar acclimate to its new environment; I'm mainly talking about humidity and temperature. A setup will always change after shipping a guitar, or moving it from one dwelling to another. I just got a new guitar from Carvin in California, and after it spent a week in a box in cold temps, it has taken about 4 days to settle down completely in my studio. I think I'm done tweaking it, finally...

Put a capo on the first fret. Hold the guitar in playing position. Then place your right index finger on the 14th fret. With your left index finger, press very gently on the low E string around the 6th or 7th fret. Does it have clearance to depress against the frets, or is it utterly dead set against them? There should be a tiny bit of clearance. Don't bother measuring it; it's too small a distance. It's a feel thing: The string should "bounce" very lightly against the frets when touched and released.

If there is no clearance, you may simply have too little relief, regardless of how wonderful this shop is. Take 1/8 turn out of the truss rod, counterclockwise. Check the relief again. I had beautiful new frets put on an L-5 recently. The luthier did a great job, but he set the action extremely low, almost as a way of showing off the work. It was too low to be practical, and I had to raise it a bit. Not the slightest big deal at all.

To rule out nut slot depth issues, put the capo back on the first fret. How does the guitar play with the nut taken out of the picture?

Guitar setup is not special for solid bodies. The principles are all the same. The action can usually be a bit lower on a solid body because fret buzz or "slap" is not as obvious when the guitar is amplified. But for jazz, that's not quite as true as it is for distorted rock music. For jazz, fret noises are more pronounced due to the clean tones we jazz players typically favor.

[teleman3726]

Personally, buzz is buzz - whether or not it's a solid body or an archtop.
Is the low E the only string that does this?
It's really tough for any of us to tell what the problem is with what you've shown us.
Roger's suggestion (rpguitar) about the capo was intended to get a better line on neck relief.
I think this is a song, Patrick!
Hey Jab - got a new vintage Epi!!! And it's a keeper.

[Lawrie]

Thanks for your response. I appreciate knowing it isn't just me.

I know the basics of truss-rod adjustment, setting intonation, adjusting action, etc. However, I am not a solid-body player (yet) and have so little experience with them that I don't feel it smart to start changing a lot of things, esp. when I've paid this shop to do it for me. I'm tempted to raise the action at the bridge just a hair and see what happens - couldn't hurt, right?

As far as neck relief goes, there is very little. Before sending it back the last time, I loosened the truss rod to the point that the buzzing stopped, but then the action was a mile high and everything felt horrible. If I didn't have so much money tied up in the thing I'd start cranking and all that, but I'd really hate to mess it up worse. Other than the 6th string buzz, the thing plays like a dream, really.

With a capo on the 1st fret, there is still string buzz. This is the problem, remember, for which I sent it to this shop in the very first place. 6th string buzzes. $500+ (w/shipping) later, it's exactly the same.

Based on my experience setting up guitars/basses, it looks and sounds to me that you may have a slight torsional twist in the neck. This would cause the your E string to buzz (as in the video) while all the other strings are fine. In your case, if you look down the neck, you might find that that there is the proper (or small amount of) relief on the high E side and no relief (or slight back bow) on the low E side.

Further, if you added relief so the string doesn't buzz, you'll find the other strings to be much higher than they would normally need to be. In any event, check it out and post what you find.

[oldane]

That sounds like pretty bad fret buzz and pretty FLAT sounding to me. A stupid suggestion from me: perhaps it is buzzing because it is out of tune and hence the string is slack. Tune it up to pitch and see what happens.

It IS up to tune. I checked - E for that low string - just the same as the guitar I tuned half an hour ago.

To the OP: It's hard to give advice when not having the guitar in the hand. All guitars will buzz if you hit them hard enough (unless the action is very high like on Freddie Greens guitar - which was ½" at the 12th fret). There are several things which can create buzz:

1) Low action. Many shops work mostly with rock and roll customers who often prefer a very low action - and don't hear the buzz because it's buried in effects and distortion. Jazz players who prefer a clean tone will hear buzzes and strings slap more clearly and some therefore prefer to set the action higher to get the cleaner sound. It's harder to fret with a higher action, but comfort is not the only concern and besides one gets used to that. After all, there are people who plays double bass which is much harder to play than a guitar.

2) Nut. If the slots in the nut are cut too low, there will be buzzes behind the fretted note (or with the open string). If they are too high, the guitar will be hard to play in the low part of the fretboard and the intonation may suffer.

3) Relief. A perfectly straight - or worse backbowed - neck combined with low nut slots (which is a good thing if they are not too low) invites buzzing behind the fretted note. A little bit of relief takes care of that. A LOT of relief will cause buzzes in the higher parts of the fingerboard unless the action is set quite high.

4) Strings. Round wound strings will buzz more than flatwounds. New strings will buzz more than older and more "dead" strings. Thinner strings will buzz more than thicker strings. It sounds like you have a fresh set of roundwounds on that guitar, right?

5) The angle of attacking the string. A downward attack will give more buzz and slap than attacking parallel to the fretboard.

I real life, all these factors interact. So the setup of every individual guitar is unique, depending on the players playing style and preferencies and that particular guitars quirks (all guitars have their "personal" quirks, like all things man made).

[thrush40]

That sounds unacceptable to me and very specific.

Could you share with us the string height measurements? Are you used to a particularly low action? Also, what gauge strings are you using.

If you have a feeler gauge, can you measure the neck relief? If you have a gauge set, but not straight edge long enough to run the length of the fret board from the first to the 15 fret, use string as your straight edge: capo the first fret, depress at the fret where the neck meets the body and measure the distance between the string and top of the seventh fret.

I was leaning toward a nut issue, since you had a professional set up done, since the guitar plays well across the other strings and since you seem to feel the that neck is straight and has reasonable relief. What speaks against this is that you report the same "open" string buzz when capo's at the first fret.

Best of luck.

[Kojo27]

Let the guitar acclimate to its new environment; I'm mainly talking about humidity and temperature. A setup will always change after shipping a guitar, or moving it from one dwelling to another. I just got a new guitar from Carvin in California, and after it spent a week in a box in cold temps, it has taken about 4 days to settle down completely in my studio. I think I'm done tweaking it, finally...

Put a capo on the first fret. Hold the guitar in playing position. Then place your right index finger on the 14th fret. With your left index finger, press very gently on the low E string around the 6th or 7th fret. Does it have clearance to depress against the frets, or is it utterly dead set against them? There should be a tiny bit of clearance. Don't bother measuring it; it's too small a distance. It's a feel thing: The string should "bounce" very lightly against the frets when touched and released.

If there is no clearance, you may simply have too little relief, regardless of how wonderful this shop is. Take 1/8 turn out of the truss rod, counterclockwise. Check the relief again. I had beautiful new frets put on an L-5 recently. The luthier did a great job, but he set the action extremely low, almost as a way of showing off the work. It was too low to be practical, and I had to raise it a bit. Not the slightest big deal at all.

To rule out nut slot depth issues, put the capo back on the first fret. How does the guitar play with the nut taken out of the picture?

Guitar setup is not special for solid bodies. The principles are all the same. The action can usually be a bit lower on a solid body because fret buzz or "slap" is not as obvious when the guitar is amplified. But for jazz, that's not quite as true as it is for distorted rock music. For jazz, fret noises are more pronounced due to the clean tones we jazz players typically favor.

Thanks again, Roger -- I'll be patient with it for another week or so. It has a tiny bit of relief - I understand setups to that degree, and have increased the relief, but to eradicate the buzzing I have to loosen the rod waaaaay too much (action goes up, neck feels bowed.) With a capo on 1st fret, right now, the string still buzzes, so I don't believe it's a nut issue; there's a slight bit of "bounce," too - as you say, or relief about the 7th or 8th fret. I might add just a sliver more.

I think your observation about fret buzz or "slap" being more accepted in distorted guitar sounds might be why I'm having trouble communicating with this guy at the shop. He probably doesn't imagine someone playing jazz or jazzed blues on a guitar like this, when that's exactly what I want to do with it! Still, I seriously doubt that Jackson shred guitars have string buzz this bad. Maybe they do, I don't know...

kj

[Kojo27]

It IS up to tune. I checked - E for that low string - just the same as the guitar I tuned half an hour ago.

To the OP: It's hard to give advice when not having the guitar in the hand. All guitars will buzz if you hit them hard enough (unless the action is very high like on Freddie Greens guitar - which was ½" at the 12th fret). There are several things which can create buzz:

1) Low action. Many shops work mostly with rock and roll customers who often prefer a very low action - and don't hear the buzz because it's buried in effects and distortion. Jazz players who prefer a clean tone will hear buzzes and strings slap more clearly and some therefore prefer to set the action higher to get the cleaner sound. It's harder to fret with a higher action, but comfort is not the only concern and besides one gets used to that. After all, there are people who plays double bass which is much harder to play than a guitar.

2) Nut. If the slots in the nut are cut too low, there will be buzzes behind the fretted note (or with the open string). If they are too high, the guitar will be hard to play in the low part of the fretboard and the intonation may suffer.

3) Relief. A perfectly straight - or worse backbowed - neck combined with low nut slots (which is a good thing if they are not too low) invites buzzing behind the fretted note. A little bit of relief takes care of that. A LOT of relief will cause buzzes in the higher parts of the fingerboard unless the action is set quite high.

4) Strings. Round wound strings will buzz more than flatwounds. New strings will buzz more than older and more "dead" strings. Thinner strings will buzz more than thicker strings. It sounds like you have a fresh set of roundwounds on that guitar, right?

5) The angle of attacking the string. A downward attack will give more buzz and slap than attacking parallel to the fretboard.

I real life, all these factors interact. So the setup of every individual guitar is unique, depending on the players playing style and preferencies and that particular guitars quirks (all guitars have their "personal" quirks, like all things man made).

Thanks much, oldane. Good info here. These strings are unplayed, new D'Addario 10-46 round-wounds, yes.

Hear ye all: I can replace the 6th string with a 52 and the buzzing STOPS. But I don't want a 52! I suppose I could get used to it, and if the guitar really has an ineradicable idiosyncrasy (my big words for the day), I might have to use light tops, heavy bottoms, or maybe go up to a 49 and see what happens. Seems a shame, though. I really like 10-46 on a guitar like this.

I suppose this fact of the .052 is telling you guys something?

Re picking too hard: I use a lot of rest strokes, but that doesn't mean I'm picking too hard. I really think I pick about average. And when (if) you're going to drive a hard rhythm in key of E, using the open E, it's going to go nuts. Things such as this are what worry me and make me not want to leave it this way. Imagine recording with this guitar!

Action: the action is approximately 2 mm on the bass side, 1.5 mm on the treble side. All my guitars, even the acoustics, are set this way, or very close. I could get used to a higher action, but with a neck as straight as this one, and with frets that are supposedly super-level, it seems silly to play a high action. Getting a low action is one of the benefits of having this kind of work done, no? I thought so. : |

[Kojo27]

Personally, buzz is buzz - whether or not it's a solid body or an archtop.
Is the low E the only string that does this?
It's really tough for any of us to tell what the problem is with what you've shown us.
Roger's suggestion (rpguitar) about the capo was intended to get a better line on neck relief.
I think this is a song, Patrick!
Hey Jab - got a new vintage Epi!!! And it's a keeper.

Hi teleman - thanks

Low E is the only culprit, yes. It's why I shipped the guitar to the shop in the first place.

Neck relief - there's very little, so I may add just a sliver more (if I don't send it back to the shop a 3rd time). Before sending it back the 2nd time, I "relieved" it until the buzzing stopped, but then the action was 3-4 mm and the neck felt bowed and terrible.

I actually am most interested in knowing your opinion of the buzzing -- would you find it acceptable and just play on, as the shop guy is seemingly telling me to do? He says this guitar rivals any guitar he has in his shop, as is. I sorta doubt that. And it bugs me that I shipped it back last time and they did NOTHING. How could they have played it and not noticed this buzzing? Or are they saying it's okay to have that much buzzing? Can't get a straight answer about that. What would YOU do?

[Kojo27]

Based on my experience setting up guitars/basses, it looks and sounds to me that you may have a slight torsional twist in the neck. This would cause the your E string to buzz (as in the video) while all the other strings are fine. In your case, if you look down the neck, you might find that that there is the proper (or small amount of) relief on the high E side and no relief (or slight back bow) on the low E side.

Further, if you added relief so the string doesn't buzz, you'll find the other strings to be much higher than they would normally need to be. In any event, check it out and post what you find.

Thanks, Lawrie. "Torsional twists" are over my head, but I believe you. Eye-balling down the neck, I see what appears to be am amazingly straight ladder of frets on an ebony fingerboard, which also appears very, very straight. They straightened the neck in a heat clamp device -- several of my guitars have been treated this way, and the results have always been satisfactory. It made a pre-trussrod Martin play like a Taylor. Well, almost.

Thanks for the input.

[milbecker1]

It's also possible that the cut in the nut of just the low E string is too deep. At least that is what I hear.
I always check the nut cut on the strings by feel and sight to see if any touch the first fret closer than the others.

I have also found some repair men like to ship them back with the lowest action possible. String bending for blues however
requires a slightly higher action.in order for you to get your fingers under for the bend. Just had my frets leveled and crowned and had to raise the bridge and re-adjust for string height. Hope this helps...Clyde

[Kojo27]

It's also possible that the cut in the nut of just the low E string is too deep. At least that is what I hear.
I always check the nut cut on the strings by feel and sight to see if any touch the first fret closer than the others.

I have also found some repair men like to ship them back with the lowest action possible. String bending for blues however
requires a slightly higher action.in order for you to get your fingers under for the bend. Just had my frets leveled and crowned and had to raise the bridge and re-adjust for string height. Hope this helps...Clyde

TY, Clyde.

[Kojo27]

That sounds unacceptable to me and very specific.

Could you share with us the string height measurements? Are you used to a particularly low action? Also, what gauge strings are you using.

If you have a feeler gauge, can you measure the neck relief? If you have a gauge set, but not straight edge long enough to run the length of the fret board from the first to the 15 fret, use string as your straight edge: capo the first fret, depress at the fret where the neck meets the body and measure the distance between the string and top of the seventh fret.

I was leaning toward a nut issue, since you had a professional set up done, since the guitar plays well across the other strings and since you seem to feel the that neck is straight and has reasonable relief. What speaks against this is that you report the same "open" string buzz when capo's at the first fret.

Best of luck.

Thrush,

My vision is terrible, so I can't read feeler gauges and machinists rulers, etc. The man who did this job is a master luthier, certified, whatever that means -- he's in his 60s now, I'd guess, and has done nothing but this all his life. His clients include the best guitarists in the world (some of them, I mean) -- so this is partly why I'm so dumbfounded that he shipped it back this way. He's done work for me since 1983, and he's a great guy, ethical and smart -- but I've shipped it all I'm gonna ship it.

Are you saying that since the low E buzzes even with a capo at 1st fret, that perhaps the frets/neck/whatever aren't as straight and level as they should be?

[Kojo27]

It's also possible that the cut in the nut of just the low E string is too deep. At least that is what I hear.
I always check the nut cut on the strings by feel and sight to see if any touch the first fret closer than the others.

I have also found some repair men like to ship them back with the lowest action possible. String bending for blues however
requires a slightly higher action.in order for you to get your fingers under for the bend. Just had my frets leveled and crowned and had to raise the bridge and re-adjust for string height. Hope this helps...Clyde

okee : )

kj

[oldane]

.... These strings are unplayed, new D'Addario 10-46 round-wounds, yes.

.....I can replace the 6th string with a 52 and the buzzing STOPS.

Action: the action is approximately 2 mm on the bass side, 1.5 mm on the treble side. All my guitars, even the acoustics, are set this way, or very close. I could get used to a higher action, but with a neck as straight as this one, and with frets that are supposedly super-level, it seems silly to play a high action. Getting a low action is one of the benefits of having this kind of work done, no? I thought so. : |

If I put those string on my guitars with an action like that, they would buzz for me too. FWIW, on my Painter guitar I have the action set to around 3mm (both sides) at the 12th fret with 15-56 flatwound strings.

It's not silly to use a higher action if that's what sounds best to you. Don't be a slave of your instrument and its limitations - let it be your slave. Apart from buzz issues, a reason for setting the action somewhat higher, is to have a greater dynamic range. With a thin string like the 46 low E and an action of only 2 mm, there are not too much room for the string amplitude before the string slaps against the frets. When I was young "low action" was the mantra, and I was obsessed with it. I could never get the sound I wanted though. Over some years, I have gradually raised my action and increased the string gauges which has benefitted tone and dynamic range. As an added bonus, getting used to that setup has meant that there is hardly any guitar which I find "unplayable".

Again, again (it's been posted before on this forum), check out the monstrous action of Freddie Greens guitar which allowed him to be heard in a big band with an acoustic guitar:

Travlin Light-Diane Schuur&Freddie Green - ???????????

[Lawrie]

Thanks, Lawrie. "Torsional twists" are over my head, but I believe you. Eye-balling down the neck, I see what appears to be am amazingly straight ladder of frets on an ebony fingerboard, which also appears very, very straight. They straightened the neck in a heat clamp device -- several of my guitars have been treated this way, and the results have always been satisfactory. It made a pre-trussrod Martin play like a Taylor. Well, almost.

Thanks for the input.

First, here's an example of a normal, straight neck and one with a torsional twist.

Straight


Twisted


The guitar in the bottom pic suffered from the same symptoms you're describing. I was able to get a reasonable set up but in the end, the neck was replaced.

Secondly, I find it unusual that the shop "straightened the neck in a heat clamp device" unless they noticed that there was something else wrong with it. Usually one would attempt to do this if there was a torsional twist or there is no trussrod.

Lastly, the E-string nut slot being cut too low as suggested by others could be the problem since you are getting buzzing on the open string, but your E was buzzing badly all the way up the neck as shown in your video. You could slightly shim the nut under the E string as an experiment to see if that helps fix the problem. Just a thought.

[Kojo27]

First, here's an example of a normal, straight neck and one with a torsional twist.

...I find it unusual that the shop "straightened the neck in a heat clamp device" unless they noticed that there was something else wrong with it. Usually one would attempt to do this if there was a torsional twist or there is no trussrod.

Lastly, the E-string nut slot being cut too low as suggested by others could be the problem since you are getting buzzing on the open string, but your E was buzzing badly all the way up the neck as shown in your video. You could slightly shim the nut under the E string as an experiment to see if that helps fix the problem. Just a thought.

Thanks for the pics, Lawrie - I see now what you're talking about. This one looks okay to me. I'll check more and have some others look.

Your curiosity about using the heat clamp is well-founded. The neck of this guitar had what Bob called "a ski jump" and he said the truss rod wouldn't affect it, thus the need for the heat clamping. I'm not exactly sure what a "ski jump" is - can only try to imagine.

BTW, this guitar doesn't buzz too badly, if at all, above the 8th fret.

>>> I just received an email from Bob - he wants me to make the drive, walk in, be there when he does his thing. It's a long drive (about 175 mi) each way, so I don't know. He hasn't responded to my video yet -- I'm eager to hear back about that.

I will experiment by shimming up the nut slot, Lawrie -- thanks for all the help. I suppose aluminum foil would work for a simple experiment...

[PTChristopher]

Man, I have bit the entire way through my tongue on this thread.

If I may suggest: Do not start shimming the nut. No.

If a competent person eventually decides that the nut slots are too low (which requires actual non-speculative observation - easy to do), they will either replace the nut, or fill the offending slot and re-cut it.

But really, pulling up a nut can cause damage if done with clue-less-o-sity.

Now that I have a hole all the way through, I should try a tongue ring or something. Maybe just a chicken bone for starters,...

Chris

[Kojo27]

Man, I have bit the entire way through my tongue on this thread.

If I may suggest: Do not start shimming the nut. No.

If a competent person eventually decides that the nut slots are too low (which requires actual non-speculative observation - easy to do), they will either replace the nut, or fill the offending slot and re-cut it.

But really, pulling up a nut can cause damage if done with clue-less-o-sity.

Now that I have a hole all the way through, I should try a tongue ring or something. Maybe just a chicken bone for starters,...

Chris

At the risk of sounding utterly stupid (something I do every time I post....), why, just for experimentation's sake... couldn't you raise the actual bottom of the SLOT with aluminum foil, or paper, or whatever, just to SEE whether a higher-up E string would buzz? Of course it's temporary, but it could roughly suggest that the slot was too deep - no?