$400 String Buzz Repair?

[Kojo27]

Hi everybody. Phew! there's a bit of mud slinging going on here but I'm sure we are all cute enough to duck when needed.

I listened to your clip kojo and yup there is buzz.

A certain amount of buzz has to be endured but I think the buzz on that open string is too much whereas the fretted notes you played would be the acceptable norm.

A string behaves as a wave when it is plucked or bowed, to the naked eye (ooer) it looks like the whole string moves at once but it is the energy focused on the point of contact on the string that is transferred between two points (fret/nut and saddle) moving up and down really fast! Yyeeeeooowwwww! <<fast car sound>>

What I am hearing of the open note on your clip is this wave effect hitting a fret top/s.


Yes it is a violin and yes it's bowed but the string wave is the same.

Light gauge strings and low action require softer technique to avoid undue buzzing, acoustically this would be very quiet but on a stonkin' ball busting humbucker equipped solid bodied guitar this would be compensated for by increasing overall amplified volume.

I also noticed your right hand technique and nails, are you a finger picking flat top player? (that sounds like an insult but it ain't). In my experience people that play in a certain style either cannot easily play in another style or sound like themselves whatever style they play.

So my conclusion?

A bit more tweaking on that guitar for that string gauge so that you are not hampered in conveying your musical expression.

I'm into Haiku's at the moment, try this one out....

Sound stops, buzzing breaks bonding.
Distant fixer frustration, takes time to tweak!
Perfection is in the action.

Gawd bless ye, Jazzbow - a non-neurotic response, finally!!! (joking with you, fellas - some of you)

I loved the video. Boy, that violin string looks like a garden snake slithering along a wooden gate. EEE!

And - what you said makes sense. I've decided not to drive the 375 mile round-trip to be told basically the same thing I've heard here, so at your behest, I just put a .049 on in place of the .046, and guess what? Buzzing stopped. I knew a .052 wouldn't buzz, but that made everything else feel out of balance. Too big for the other strings, and I do want to keep .010s on it for the stuff I want to play with this guitar. I'm going to go down to a .048 as soon as I can find one, see how that works out. I can tolerate a modicum of buzz - it's a guitar after all. But jeez, the luthier kept saying flatly, "Your guitar is fine. Nothing's wrong with that guitar." I even sent him the video clip - no word back.

Anyhump, the work the guy did on the neck and frets is pretty amazing (to me) -- playing it feels a bit like skating on ice, in a good way -- so it's gonna take some time to develop a feel for it. Yes, I do play mostly acoustic guitars, but lately the fingernails have been largely for chord melody and comping, although I do some mediocre Chet on flattops. I doubt that figures in with the buzzing, however -- I won't rule it out, though.

PTChris had an interesting idea of loosening the truss rod just a hair, and LOWERING the treble-side action. He thinks this could work with the .046; or it might give me success with a .047 or .048. Any thoughts, do tell.

As of now though, I'm cookin'. Honestly would rather have the .046 back, but might have to bow to physics.

Thanks, jazzbow. Cool haiku!

[jazzbow]

Perfection is in the action.

I like that line, I think I'll get a T-shirt with that printed on it!

This next bit might sound arse about face but here goes!

Any guitar with properly prepared frets all levelled, shaped and polished. A properly cut and polished nut, bridge and saddle all correctly set. The correct neck pitch, set truss rod and proper relief. Even the correct string pitch behind the nut and saddles.
All this and the sensation of string tension and string gauge to a players fretting hand fingertips will be minimal between 10's and 11's, but (and this is the important bit), makes some difference to final tweaking of the neck.


Below is D'Addario gauge and tension chart for 10's and 11's.

Set	1st diameter/Tension		2nd diameter/Tension		3rd diameter/Tension		4th diameter/Tension		5th diameter/Tension		6th diameter/Tension		Total Set Tension
EKXL110	0.0100	16.200	0.0130	15.400	0.0170	16.600	0.0260	18.400	0.0360	19.500	0.0460	17.500	103.600
EXL115	0.0110	19.600	0.0140	17.800	0.0180	18.600	0.0280	21.300	0.0380	21.600	0.0490	19.700	118.600

First off there is an overall difference of 15lbs of tension between the 10's & 11's. Also there is a difference of 2.2lbs difference between a 46 and 49 6th string. This extra tension of the larger string would be enough to pull the neck enough to clear the fret that buzzes on an open note! I would check the frets along the lay of the 6th string with a fret rocker while the neck was under tension in the playing position, It may be that one fret is a micron higher that the rest!

A friend of mine has a lovely late 60's Hagstrom acoustic guitar. The engineering that has gone into it is over the top. You can change the pitch of the neck with a key and the truss rod is like a steel girder! The action he has is really low, as low as an electric. If it buzzes and he can't adjust it out then he'll file the offending fret, a little bit off here and a little bit off there. He's happy.


Perfection is in the details

This may help.

[teleman3726]

Bummer, I'm late to the mudslinging contests!
Please, someone misquote me or call me an ahole!
Hey Patrick: Pia was a Jersey girl that got famous in the early 80s through a flick called Butterfly.
I recall Johnny Carson once saying: "Who the hell is Pia Zadora?"
Sadly, her career tanked in the 80s and she was forced to sing standards. Ha!
I wonder what she looks like now: Man, she's gotta be close to 80!

[Kojo27]

Pia Zadora became so desperate to "come back" that she posed butt-freakin' nude in Playboy -- and I was a horn-ball teen then and even I wasn't too impressed. She's one of the few women who look sexier with their clothes on. Or partially on. Or is that partially off?

[Kojo27]

I like that line, I think I'll get a T-shirt with that printed on it!

This next bit might sound arse about face but here goes!

Any guitar with properly prepared frets all levelled, shaped and polished. A properly cut and polished nut, bridge and saddle all correctly set. The correct neck pitch, set truss rod and proper relief. Even the correct string pitch behind the nut and saddles.
All this and the sensation of string tension and string gauge to a players fretting hand fingertips will be minimal between 10's and 11's, but (and this is the important bit), makes some difference to final tweaking of the neck.



First off there is an overall difference of 15lbs of tension between the 10's & 11's. Also there is a difference of 2.2lbs difference between a 46 and 49 6th string. This extra tension of the larger string would be enough to pull the neck enough to clear the fret that buzzes on an open note! I would check the frets along the lay of the 6th string with a fret rocker while the neck was under tension in the playing position, It may be that one fret is a micron higher that the rest!

(my emphasis - kj)

Perfection is in the details

This may help.

This luthier (master luthier, ahem) went on and on about this being one of his best fret jobs, said, "The frets ARE true." And I don't have a fret rocker, so I'll have to believe him. I hope going up to the .049 hasn't screwed up a sensitively set-up axe... it feels good so far - needing some fresh strings after all the adjusting and handling.

[Kojo27]

Bummer, I'm late to the mudslinging contests!
Please, someone misquote me or call me an ahole!

Sorry you missed it, Teleman - here's some mud-slinging just for you:

[jazzbow]

Sorry you missed it, Teleman - here's some mud-slinging just for you:

Failing to win her mudslinging match against an ageing Raquel Welch signalled the end of Pia Zadora's career in show biz'

[Kojo27]

Failing to win her mudslinging match against an ageing Raquel Welch signalled the end of Pia Zadora's career in show biz'

Hahahahahahaha!!!!

[teleman3726]

Oh nice!
Thanks. Wish Rac would sit on my face in the mud!

[Drumbler]

You either need more relief in the neck or raise the action a bit.

What is the measurement of the relief at the 8th fret? Hopefully you know how to check the relief. Put a capo at the first fret. Hold down the low E at the last fret. Measure at 8th fret. Should be slight gap between string and fret. Do the same with the high E string. Adjust truss rod if necessary.

Retune and check it. If you still get that buzz raise the action until it's gone. You could also try heavier strings.

Was this a new guitar? For $6000 it should be perfect. Unfortunately Gibson makes junk.

Setting up a $6000 guitar is no different than setting up a $100 guitar. It's not a Holy Relic.

[Kojo27]

You either need more relief in the neck or raise the action a bit.

What is the measurement of the relief at the 8th fret? Hopefully you know how to check the relief. Put a capo at the first fret. Hold down the low E at the last fret. Measure at 8th fret. Should be slight gap between string and fret. Do the same with the high E string. Adjust truss rod if necessary.

Retune and check it. If you still get that buzz raise the action until it's gone. You could also try heavier strings.

Was this a new guitar? For $6000 it should be perfect. Unfortunately Gibson makes junk.

Setting up a $6000 guitar is no different than setting up a $100 guitar. It's not a Holy Relic.

Thanks Drumbler. Good info. However, the actual topic became lost right away, and then lost even worse when Patrick showed up. All I asked for were some opinions about the buzzing itself, and about my picking technique. I paid a good deal to have this guitar "jazzed up" and I wanted to know whether you guys agreed with the luthier, who said the buzzing was *not* excessive, that the guitar was fine as it is -- and that perhaps I pick too hard. I'm not a solid-body guitar player, so I really didn't know... just asked for a little help.

Thanks again.

kj

BTW, you need to read the original post; your facts are a tad off.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=Kojo27;304362]Thanks Drumbler. Good info. However, the actual topic became lost right away,

and then lost even worse when Patrick showed up.

Hey Koj . . . unlike PTChris . . . (who seems to have a much greater tolerance level for fools than I do) . . . I won't just do the more intelligent thing and drop off the post, as he wisely did. When I get hit, I usually hit back . . . harder. If the phrase I quoted above . . (which I now know how to do, thanks to you) . . wasn't so damned stupid, it would be funny. But it's not funny! Maybe that's because you didn't follow the statement up with "(just joking)" , as you usually do when you post something stupid and insulting as you have here.?.? Either way, I'm not laughing!

Let's see now; you blame you guitar tech for a poor set up . . . you blame PTChris for calling you an A-hole . . when it's very clear to all that he never included that in the post you quoted . . . you blame me for the deterioration of your thread because I posted an "opinion" asyou requested from us. Well, here's another "opinion" . . . in my opinion, your whining sounds like that of a little child who is blaming anyone he can because he can't get his toy work correctly. You need to grow up!

[Drumbler]

Thanks Drumbler. Good info. However, the actual topic became lost right away, and then lost even worse when Patrick showed up. All I asked for were some opinions about the buzzing itself, and about my picking technique. I paid a good deal to have this guitar "jazzed up" and I wanted to know whether you guys agreed with the luthier, who said the buzzing was *not* excessive, that the guitar was fine as it is -- and that perhaps I pick too hard. I'm not a solid-body guitar player, so I really didn't know... just asked for a little help.

Thanks again.

kj

BTW, you need to read the original post; your facts are a tad off.

Just read one of your posts about your action which is 2mm. I go by 64ths inch and generally find 4/64ths inch to be about right for a solid body. Not sure what that equates to in mm.

Back to that original question. I do not think it should rattle like that. I would call that a "rattle" not buzzing but that is semantics.

The string is oscillating and hitting the frets. To fix you either have to adjust the relief (adjust relief to correct amount only) and then if still rattling raise action or heavier strings. You do not adjust relief to raise or lower action, that would be a bridge or nut adjustment, and avoid messing with the nut only as a last resort. Adjust the neck to a correct relief, then adjust string height with the bridge saddles or whatever kind of bridge you have (tune-a-matic?)

Fingerpickers usually can have lower action because they do not pick the string as hard as flatpickers. Maybe your setup guy is a fingerpicker.

[Kojo27]

Just read one of your posts about your action which is 2mm. I go by 64ths inch and generally find 4/64ths inch to be about right for a solid body. Not sure what that equates to in mm.

Back to that original question. I do not think it should rattle like that. I would call that a "rattle" not buzzing but that is semantics.

The string is oscillating and hitting the frets. To fix you either have to adjust the relief (adjust relief to correct amount only) and then if still rattling raise action or heavier strings. You do not adjust relief to raise or lower action, that would be a bridge or nut adjustment, and avoid messing with the nut only as a last resort. Adjust the neck to a correct relief, then adjust string height with the bridge saddles or whatever kind of bridge you have (tune-a-matic?)

Fingerpickers usually can have lower action because they do not pick the string as hard as flatpickers. Maybe your setup guy is a fingerpicker.

Appreciated, sir. I could be wrong here, but I think 1/16 (4/64) inch equals about 1.5 mm, which is approximately my treble side action. I did go to a slightly heavier string: from a .046 to a .049, and the problem is solved. I'm not crazy about having to do this, but perhaps it's me against the laws of physics, when talking about *this* particular guitar. I dislike doing this only because I might end up with a pile of .046 strings, wasted.

Yes, it has TOM bridge/saddles, set dead on (except for the new 6th, which I'll get to momentarily). I wouldn't dare mess with the nut! I haven't the tools nor the keenness of vision to do that. This is a Buzz Feiten nut too, so I don't want to screw that up (*please* guys, not another Buzz Feiten thread!). I like BF. Some don't. It's off topic, though.

And yeah, Bob must barely stroke the string with the pad of his thumb or something. I asked this question 'cause I didn't know whether solid bodies were allowed to rattle a bit. Dumb question maybe, but I'm a rank beginner with solid-body guitars.

Thanks again, Drumbler

[ArtisanLuthiers]

Yes, I see the date of this thread but hopefully this can help someone in a similar situation. Here are a few things you can think about . . .

1. Nut slot WIDTH. If you've gone to heavier strings you need to widen the slot or the string will bind.
2. Lube nut slots with common pencil graphite to facilitate unrestricted string movement.
3. When replacing the string, cut it a little longer to get a few more wraps (spiraled downward of course). This changes the "ramp down" angle from the nut to the tuner.
4. Check to make certain that a fret end is not loose/raised.

[ptchristopher3]

What a riot.

Damn I miss Patrick.

I do not miss the offline PM’s from the OP, who seemed to want a lonesome forumite buddy.

As for the latest post, yes to everything except #3. That is a actualy a long and widely held, but simply and demonstrably unfortunate belief for several reasons.

Anyway, funny trip into the past.

[Litterick]

Send him your video. Ask him what he thinks.

[Alter]

If your guitar neck had to be treated with a heat clamp, it could be twisted or have all sorts of problems. Personally I think good tone ends where buzzing starts, especially talking jazz cleans. I use a bit of relief and medium action, but I've had guitars with no relief and really low action that played perfectly, you could pound on any note without buzzing. But you need perfect neck, frets and setup for that to work. Once a fret is just a tad high, or something in the neck or top moves a bit, problems begin..

A good setup guy will ask you how you want your guitar setup, since there are many viable ways to do it. Learning to do setup by yourself is really worth it, you can be very precise and setup around your own playing technique. Saves $$ and time too.

[teeps]

... _{I'd really rather know your opinion about the level of buzzing, and about my pick technique.}

I don't think the level of buzzing is far out with the combination of low action and new round wound strings of 0.010-0.046. Action/relief is weakly depending on the scale so numbers that may be work well on a 25.5" scale might not work on e.g. 22" scale.
Picking technique I can not judge, but get the impression of a fairly heavy/stiff pick. Maybe its due to the rest stroke. The "weird thing" is that You only have this buzz on one string. But - and I appologize for being off topic - If you have used this tech for that long period, he should know you and your playing style and preferences well enough. I wish you good luck with the guitar.