$400 String Buzz Repair?

[Patrick2]

GUYS!!!

<sub>You're trying to FIX my guitar, and I do appreciate that; and you're trying to teach me to be a do-it-yourself repair guy (and in a pinch, I really can set up my own guitars! Hard to believe, aye?) But I paid for a setup (and more!) from one of the best in the country, supposedly, and I'm merely holding out to get that done properly.

My original post was pretty clear, I thought. I wanted to know: 1) Do you think this level of buzzing is acceptable? and 2) Am I picking too hard?

I learn a lot from these "repair" posts, and I'm even grateful for them. But I don't have the tools, the space, or the crispness of vision necessary to go in with feeler gauges and machinists' rules, etc. I pay Bob to do this stuff, and he has done it supremely well in the past, for amazingly low prices. But I've been a customer since 1983!

Thanks very much for all the interest and the help - as I said, I've learned some stuff here. I'd really rather know your opinion about the level of buzzing, and about my pick technique.</sub>

Koj: not sure why your type font above is so small.?.? I'll try to answer your two questions without being too cynical . . . but, I'm sure the cynicism will be evident.

Question 1 . . "Do you think this level of buzzing is acceptable?"

My response; acceptable to whom? Us, or you? And, if all of us who do respond indicate that it is indeed common and acceptable, would you then be content with your guitar? If you're asking us if this should be acceptable to you, then . . . how the hell could we ever know that??

Question 2 . . "Am I picking too hard?"

My response; we really haven't heard or seen you play. We heard and saw you strike a string to illustrate your own perception of an excessive string buzz. If we tell you that you're picking too hard, will you then alter your pick attack to appease our assessment of it??

Your guitar needs to be set up to your liking . . not ours. And, it needs to be responsive to your touch and your pick attack . . not what we think your pick attack should be. And only you can determine if the buzz you hear on an open 6th string is tolerable to you or not. There are some 50 posts here, and most are opinions based upon what others think. Those opinions count for absolutely nothing. You'll not find the answers to your questions from anyone other than yourself.

My suggestion to you would be to take your guitar to a competent tech . . whether that's the one you sent it to originally or someone else . . and remain there with the tech during and through to the end of the set up. Tell the tech what YOU want. .. . not what some guys on a forum said you should be pursuing. When the set up is complete, play the guitar in front of the tech . . . and if you have concerns, then have those concerns addressed before you leave the shop.

Anyway . . . that's how I'd handle it.

[Kojo27]

Question 1 . . "Do you think this level of buzzing is acceptable?"

My response; acceptable to whom? Us, or you? And, if all of us who do respond indicate that it is indeed common and acceptable, would you then be content with your guitar? If you're asking us if this should be acceptable to you, then . . . how the hell could we ever know that??

Since you can't possibly know what's acceptable to me, isn't it implicit enough that I'm asking for your opinion? Do *you* find it acceptable? Would you be satisfied playing a guitar that had this much string buzz?

I'd like to know your opinion because the guy who did the setup seems to be telling me that I'm too picky - that most guys would ignore the buzzing and play on. If most of you respond that you wouldn't like this kind of string buzz, I can know with better certainty that I'm right (it's excessive) and that the luthier wants me to accept the unacceptable.

Question 2 . . "Am I picking too hard?"

My response; we really haven't heard or seen you play.

Oh GOD, not this shit again - what does this have to do with ANYTHING? Besides, many have "heard or seen" me play, and I wish whoever "us" is would get it through "their" heads that "they" are not the whole f*ing forum!

We heard and saw you strike a string to illustrate your own perception of an excessive string buzz. If we tell you that you're picking too hard, will you then alter your pick attack to appease our assessment of it??

Again, the luthier wants me to believe that perhaps I'm picking with too much "flat" of the pick and not enough of the edge, or that I'm picking too hard. I think I pick moderately to light, and that's all I'm trying to show in the video. Based on what you see, do you feel that the picking is too hard? Too anything? Should the string buzz because of how I'm picking it?

If the majority of you feel that I'm picking reasonably - not hammering the string - then again, I can know that the guy wants me to consider a potential problem that likely is not a problem. And, if most of you tell me I *am* picking far too hard, then yes - I might alter my technique for this type of guitar - not to "appease your assessment" (whatever that means), but to play that type of guitar better.

Your guitar needs to be set up to your liking . . not ours. And, it needs to be responsive to your touch and your pick attack . . not what we think your pick attack should be. And only you can determine if the buzz you hear on an open 6th string is tolerable to you or not. There are some 50 posts here, and most are opinions based upon what others think. Those opinions count for absolutely nothing. You'll not find the answers to your questions from anyone other than yourself.

If the opinions count for nothing, it might be because folks didn't read the OP, which asked two simple questions: 1) Is this buzzing excessive in your opinion, and 2) Am I picking too hard, do ya think? I never asked for, nor wanted, any advice about guitar setup, nut slots, strings gauges, action height, truss rods - although I appreciate that some of you gave good information.

My suggestion to you would be to take your guitar to a competent tech . . whether that's the one you sent it to originally or someone else . . and remain there with the tech during and through to the end of the set up. Tell the tech what YOU want. .. . not what some guys on a forum said you should be pursuing. When the set up is complete, play the guitar in front of the tech . . . and if you have concerns, then have those concerns addressed before you leave the shop.

It's a 350 mile round-trip drive, as I've said elsewhere. Besides, this is the age of email, Skype, instant communication to almost anywhere in the world. I *wish* the shop were just down the street - of course! But alas, it ain't. So I've had to do it this way, until now - and now he says I'll have to bring the guitar in person. Methinks he's hoping I won't show.

Anyway . . . that's how I'd handle it.

Cool.

[3625]

Unfortunately, IMO you should take it to someone else, because after the fuss you've made to this luthier (which is justified) he probably wouldn't get rid of the buzz because that would show he didn't do it properly the first time. Not saying he's a bad guy or anything, but it sounds like he's trying to save face on the issue - telling you how to pick etc.!

[edh]

I'm no expert.

For me...no amount of fret buzz is acceptable. It would drive me nuts.

Your picking does not seem to hard.

If you're action and all else is the same on the other guitar you mentioned and it does not buzz, then I would conclude that it is the guitar that is setup wrong.

Personnely I don't think you're are being unreasonable.

[oldane]

We did not know that you were 60.

Be ready for an even bigger surprice: Soon I'll be 61.

[oldane]

Since you can't possibly know what's acceptable to me, isn't it implicit enough that I'm asking for your opinion? Do *you* find it acceptable? Would you be satisfied playing a guitar that had this much string buzz?

.... and since we can't possibly KNOW what's acceptable to you, our opinions can't really be of much use to you. But I think most of us took the freedom to ASSUME that the buzzing wasn't acceptable to you. I mean, if you didn't have a problem with it, you wouldn't have posted in the first place, would you? That's why we went on to suggestions to solve the problem we assumed you had. In a forum like this there will of course be many very different suggestions, some good and some not so good, and each of us will of course insist the our suggestion is the best of them all.

But since you ask: No, the buzzing you demonstrated would clearly be unacceptable for me - and that's why I set up my guitars the way I do. If you listen carefully to some of the early Beatles records, you can hear George Harrisons Gretsch buzz about as much as your guitar does, so obviously it was acceptable to him. Who can say he was wrong with all the money he made from those records.

Do you remember the old song "Only trust your heart"? It applies here too. In his guitar repair handbook, Dan Erlewine listed the preferred setup of a number of well known great guitar players to show that preferencies were all over the place. He also mentioned that none of the "classic" jazz guitarists he had come across were preoccupied with thin strings and low action.

Guitar technicians may believe knowing what the average guitarist wants, but jazz guitarists are not the average, they are a tiny and ideosyncratic minority, and the technicians understanding what jazz guitarists want are few. Heck, even with jazz guitarists, preferences are all over the place. Therefore I learned to do my own setups many years ago - by trial and error as there were no internet fora with no PTChris'es back then.

BTW, maybe it's me, but I felt you picked a little on PTChris. Feel free to pick on us amateur wise guys, but Chris is actually a professional luthier. It's a privilege for us that he's willing to spend his time on this forum sharing his wast knowledge and experience with us. When you see a post with his name on it, read it. You'll always learn something and by following his advice you will get the job done and the problems solved. I suspect that Chris knows very well that he knows more than the rest of us and I also suspect that he doesn't suffer fools gladly - who does? - but when he runs into that, he's also polite enough to back out with an almost inaudible sigh and an understated remark instead of heading into a verbal confrontation.

[Patrick2]

Since you can't possibly know what's acceptable to me, isn't it implicit enough that I'm asking for your opinion? Do *you* find it acceptable? Would you be satisfied playing a guitar that had this much string buzz?

I'd like to know your opinion because the guy who did the setup seems to be telling me that I'm too picky - that most guys would ignore the buzzing and play on. If most of you respond that you wouldn't like this kind of string buzz, I can know with better certainty that I'm right (it's excessive) and that the luthier wants me to accept the unacceptable.



Oh GOD, not this shit again - what does this have to do with ANYTHING? Besides, many have "heard or seen" me play, and I wish whoever "us" is would get it through "their" heads that "they" are not the whole f*ing forum!

Again, the luthier wants me to believe that perhaps I'm picking with too much "flat" of the pick and not enough of the edge, or that I'm picking too hard. I think I pick moderately to light, and that's all I'm trying to show in the video. Based on what you see, do you feel that the picking is too hard? Too anything? Should the string buzz because of how I'm picking it?

If the majority of you feel that I'm picking reasonably - not hammering the string - then again, I can know that the guy wants me to consider a potential problem that likely is not a problem. And, if most of you tell me I *am* picking far too hard, then yes - I might alter my technique for this type of guitar - not to "appease your assessment" (whatever that means), but to play that type of guitar better.

If the opinions count for nothing, it might be because folks didn't read the OP, which asked two simple questions: 1) Is this buzzing excessive in your opinion, and 2) Am I picking too hard, do ya think? I never asked for, nor wanted, any advice about guitar setup, nut slots, strings gauges, action height, truss rods - although I appreciate that some of you gave good information.



It's a 350 mile round-trip drive, as I've said elsewhere. Besides, this is the age of email, Skype, instant communication to almost anywhere in the world. I *wish* the shop were just down the street - of course! But alas, it ain't. So I've had to do it this way, until now - and now he says I'll have to bring the guitar in person. Methinks he's hoping I won't show.



Cool.

Not sure why the harshness of tone in your reaction to my reply . . . but, it sounds kinda childish. But, then again, so too does posting a video of your self plucking a string and asking others to assess your pick attack. Or asking other to express their opinion of whether or not an obviouis buzz . . . is an obvious buzz.

So then, I'll feel free to respond with equal harshness;

What's next? Will you post a full on pictuire of yourself and ask *us* (whom ever "we" are) if you're wearing your pants too high or parting your hair on the wrong side? My response to you was nothing more than an opinion that you need to grow a set and start seeking answers from yourself . . . and not from others who are sometimes a continent away. You're not looking for opinions. You're looking for affirmation that your guitar tech f***** up. Well .. . guess what. Anyone who thinks he or she can tell you that by looking at those videos or watching you pluck two or three notes is just blowing smoke up your skirt. How can ANYONE actually say that the neck didn't move while in transit from the tech back to you?? We (whom ever "we" are) . . . have no way of knowing whether or not that guitar was perfect when it left your tech's shop. And honestly . . . would you really alter your pick attack if some of *us* . . . (whom ever "we" are) tell you you're picking too hard. Hmmm . . . what would you do if *we* (whom ever "we" are) . . . tell you that your song selection sucks and shouldn't be played on a guitar that you pick to hard on . . . . (did I just say "hard on"?? Must've been a Freudian slip)

Actually, I do think the guy who did your set up is acurate in thinking you are too picky. Possibly even a major league PIA!!! Further to that, I really don't think that when the tech says you need to bring the guitar to him in person he's actually hoping you won't show up. I think he's demonstrating prudence and professionalism in insisting that you do so.

Honestly, if it was me who did the work on your guitar . . . I'd refund $200 of the $400 you paid me and ask you to burn my phone number and find another tech.

[PTChristopher]

>>> PIA!!!

You mean like Pia Zadora? Kinda out of date wouldn't you say?

[Patrick2]

>>> PIA!!!

You mean like Pia Zadora? Kinda out of date wouldn't you say?

The acronym or the lady? If it's the former and not the latter then yeah . . . definitely out of date. But, it's funny how it automatically comes right back into what's current . . . just as soon as it's once again applicable.

[PTChristopher]

My brother and I used to think this was the stupidest commercial ever.

[Kojo27]

....
BTW, maybe it's me, but I felt you picked a little on PTChris. Feel free to pick on us amateur wise guys, but Chris is actually a professional luthier.

Where? In this thread? I picked on PTChris? I try not to pick on anybody, so please point out what you mean.

[PTChristopher]

I feel decidedly not picked on. Maybe disinterested in the victim-status flow of the thread - as opposed to the more fun topic of "guitars, understanding them and and bending them to our will". If you will.

Actually I am picked on by Patrick somertimes, but our aunts go shoe shopping together every Thursday. So I'll speak to Auntie Grizelda and see that he gets a good talking to,...

Chris

[Kojo27]

Fair enough Koj. Sorry for the clutter in what is supposed to be some other sort of thread in this public forum, I guess. Good luck with this, and enjoy the thread any way that seems to work for you.

PT, notice that I expressed thanks for all the repair info - I meant it! I do *not* see any of this stuff as "clutter." These threads tend to sprawl when the OP is after one sort of info but is getting several other kinds to boot. And sprawling threads are often good threads - I appreciate all that you and the others offered. I hope you didn't take offense; I was merely trying to re-focus the thing and get some answers to my questions.

kj

NOTE: I wrote this while PTChris wrote his post just above - I hadn't read his post until after I'd written this one.

[PTChristopher]

[Kojo]>>> I wrote this while PTChris wrote his post just above - I hadn't read his post until after I'd written this one.



[Chris] So you are also outraged by Patrick's not-nice-e-tude to me?

*****************



Ya know Koj, I understand that you are displeased by your experience. And blowing off some steam is fine.

But in my experience actual guitars and players make great sounds through the work of simply and briefly understanding the situation at hand, then working to making things better.

I enjoy the general low-whine factor around here in this regard - so exceptions do tend to stand out some.

This is my one and only web forum, significantly because of the low-silly factor (noting that this makes me responsible for a good 51% of the silly parts).

My opinion.

(EDIT: For non-native speakers and such: Patrick and Oldane are forum pals of mine, and insults to and from them are meant as part of this. There would be shoving and spilled whiskey in person, but on the web we do as best we can.)

Chris

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=PTChristopher;303586]>>> PIA!!!

You mean like Pia Zadora? Kinda out of date wouldn't you say?

Holy shit!!! Now I get it! I didn't hit the T key hard enough and the acronym PITA only came out as PIA. LOLOLOLOLOL

I was so damned upset with kojo that I wasn't even typing up to my own poor standards. By the way, what was Pia Zadora's claim to fame anyway. I remember the name from back in the '70s I think. Didn't she marry some old dude like Johnny Carson's side kick Ed McMahn or somebody?? Was she a singer or something??

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=PTChristopher;303798]I feel decidedly not picked on. Maybe disinterested in the victim-status flow of the thread - as opposed to the more fun topic of "guitars, understanding them and and bending them to our will". If you will.

Actually I am picked on by Patrick somertimes,

Thank you for noticing! I was beginning to think my efforts were in vain. But, then again, I am well known for my subtle style.

but our aunts go shoe shopping together every Thursday.

So . . . you really do believe that BS they hand us about going shoe shopping??? WOW!! You're really naive. You've never even noticed that look a sexually fulfilled bliss in your aunt's eyes when she comes home?? I followed them one evening. They're meeting up with 2b and hot ford coup . . . a rendezvous over at the "No Tell Motel" . . . the place with the heart shaped hot tubs in the rooms.

[PTChristopher]

>>> [Our aunts] meeting up with 2b and hot ford coup . . . a rendezvous

This explains why she started doing something about the moustache.

>>> what was Pia Zadora's claim to fame anyway
I believe no claim at all. That was sort of ahead of its time - a pre-Kardashian I guess.

Chris

[Kojo27]

Ya know Koj, I understand that you are displeased by your experience. And blowing off some steam is fine.

Chris

PT: If you mean that you feel I'm displeased with how this thread has transpired, then rest assured I am not! I've stated several times that I like the info given here, by everybody. I merely wanted to redirect things back to the original questions, for they had apparently been lost along the way - and that's okay, too. Nobody's upset Where do I seem to be "blowing off steam" - except at Patrick's painfully predictable idiocy? (joke, Patrick)

I don't know what you mean when you say exceptions to the "low-whine factor" tend to stand out. Not clear to me at all, that one. Who's whining (besides Patrick, and me in response?)

I think we all must keep in mind the one-dimensionality of forum posts, email, etc. -- and how easy it is to read into the usually-cryptic messages almost any tone of voice we're expecting. I tell you true, I am almost never upset or flustered... rather, I'm placid, tranquil, even detached from the back-and-forth of these forum posts. Even with Patrick, I'm joking. I like Patrick; he makes the forum better, as do most people here. Regarding the "arguments," I enjoy them sometimes, but I hope I have better things to expend my energy on than anger at some poster I don't even know -- you know? Let's all kick back and talk and NOT bite our nails or pull our hair... there are people out there starving to death: this is small stuff here.

BTW, PTChris -- you seem to know your stuff very well. I've decided (I think) not to take the guitar back, but to take some of your advice; so see: good came of it -- but that's another thread, or a PM, maybe : )

kj

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=Kojo27;303857]PT: If you mean that you feel I'm displeased with how this thread has transpired, then rest assured I am not! I've stated several times that I like the info given here, by everybody. I merely wanted to redirect things back to the original questions, for they had apparently been lost along the way - and that's okay, too. Nobody's upset Where do I seem to be "blowing off steam" - except at Patrick's painfully predictable idiocy? (joke, Patrick)

I don't know what you mean when you say exceptions to the "low-whine factor" tend to stand out. Not clear to me at all, that one.

Who's whining

Hey koj . . . a little cheeze with your whine???

[PTChristopher]

[Kojo] >>> that's another thread, or a PM, maybe

Please let's keep it to guitar talk and on the forum vs. PM.

Another thread would be a nice way to leave behind the extra and get to guitar stuff.

Chris

[Kojo27]

spy-bots

[PTChristopher]

Um, gents,...

This is a bit odd. I seem to be getting misquoted here, in the post above.

I have also gotten some PMs that are beyond the scope of my involvement here, and seem to be from a troubled individual.

This is very much beyond my interest in participation here.

I will drop off this thread at this point.

Chris

[Kojo27]

[Kojo]>>> I wrote this while PTChris wrote his post just above - I hadn't read his post until after I'd written this one.



[Chris] So you are also outraged by Patrick's not-nice-e-tude to me?

*****************



Ya know Koj, I understand that you are displeased by your experience. And blowing off some steam is fine.

But in my experience actual guitars and players make great sounds through the work of simply and briefly understanding the situation at hand, then working to making things better.

I enjoy the general low-whine factor around here in this regard - so exceptions do tend to stand out some.

This is my one and only web forum, significantly because of the low-silly factor (noting that this makes me responsible for a good 51% of the silly parts).

My opinion.

(EDIT: For non-native speakers and such: Patrick and Oldane are forum pals of mine, and insults to and from them are meant as part of this. There would be shoving and spilled whiskey in person, but on the web we do as best we can.)

Chris

Guys who make posts like this one above and then decline to explain what the heck they mean - maybe they should leave. I'm not speaking here in an angry voice - I'm pondering, chin-in-hand, smoking a pipe maybe, ruminating. Why wouldn't he tell me where I was "blowing off steam?" As far as I know, I never "blew off steam." What's the exception to the "low-whine-factor" he found, but won't identify? Who complained? I am merely asking, my eyes turned to the night sky.

What in heaven's name does this mean: "[Chris] So you are also outraged by Patrick's not-nice-e-tude to me?" Not-nice-e-tude? By Patrick to .... whom? Chris? Chris is asking Chris??????????? Yes - read it! Why do I get the impression that somebody is "tweaking" posts to better suit what he/they wish he/they had said?

Why call me a "big A-hole?" I only wanted some others' opinions about some string buzz, and about my picking technique. Somebody show me where I was an A-hole.

I hate dealing with crap like this, too -- especially in my own thread. I want to talk guitars and music - not playground politics, or whatever this is.

Bah, it was a good thread for a while there. "Things fall apart," as Achube said, or however his name's spelled.

[oldane]

So . . . you really do believe that BS they hand us about going shoe shopping??? WOW!! You're really naive. You've never even noticed that look a sexually fulfilled bliss in your aunt's eyes when she comes home?? I followed them one evening. They're meeting up with 2b and hot ford coup . . . a rendezvous over at the "No Tell Motel" . . . the place with the heart shaped hot tubs in the rooms.

Lester Young on the JATP tour bus: "Whoever stole my whiskey, I want him to know that I'm his mothers VERY best man!"

[jazzbow]

Hi everybody. Phew! there's a bit of mud slinging going on here but I'm sure we are all cute enough to duck when needed.

I listened to your clip kojo and yup there is buzz.

A certain amount of buzz has to be endured but I think the buzz on that open string is too much whereas the fretted notes you played would be the acceptable norm.

A string behaves as a wave when it is plucked or bowed, to the naked eye (ooer) it looks like the whole string moves at once but it is the energy focused on the point of contact on the string that is transferred between two points (fret/nut and saddle) moving up and down really fast! Yyeeeeooowwwww! <<fast car sound>>

What I am hearing of the open note on your clip is this wave effect hitting a fret top/s.

Check the vid

Yes it is a violin and yes it's bowed but the string wave is the same.

Light gauge strings and low action require softer technique to avoid undue buzzing, acoustically this would be very quiet but on a stonkin' ball busting humbucker equipped solid bodied guitar this would be compensated for by increasing overall amplified volume.

I also noticed your right hand technique and nails, are you a finger picking flat top player? (that sounds like an insult but it ain't). In my experience people that play in a certain style either cannot easily play in another style or sound like themselves whatever style they play.

So my conclusion?

A bit more tweaking on that guitar for that string gauge so that you are not hampered in conveying your musical expression.

I'm into Haiku's at the moment, try this one out....

Sound stops, buzzing breaks bonding.
Distant fixer frustration, takes time to tweak!
Perfection is in the action.