$400 String Buzz Repair?

[Kojo27]

Kojo27, I think you solved your own problem. My intuition was partially correct: your E2 0.046" string had insufficient tension for the bass string action and your right-hand technique. The gauge was too low.

2mm or 5/64th" is the recommended bass string action for electric guitars played with a fast light touch. So, change your right-hand technique to a lighter touch, raise the bass string action to 2.5mm or 3mm or more, or move to a higher bass string gauge. You found that 0.052" worked for your guitar. But you do not like it. How about trying 0.048" or 0.050"?

I won't fiddle with the truss rod and expect an immediate change in neck relief; if you do see an immediate change, it usually means that you've overdone it. I will wait one week or two to evaluate a truss rod adjustment.

Trust your luthier. Your guitar is fine.

The 10-46 string gauge is mighty light. I'm pretty hamfisted and heavy-handed; with a light gauge like that, I will get buzzes all over the neck.

WILL DO! Thanks, jab. When I used the .052, I didn't have to raise the action. And I don't mind bigger strings, per se, but when there's only ONE of the six that feels "out of proportion," it makes for a weirdness I don't like. I have a .049 here, so I'll put that on and see what happens.

Thanks again!

kj

[PTChristopher]

Hi Koj,

In principle you could raise the nut to see if it is too low.

Nevermind anything crazy like simple clear analysis of the actual symptoms, yes you could shim the nut.


Now,

- How do you plan to get the nut out?

It is easy if glued in lightly and the neck finish is not up onto the side of the nut.

And yet, gouges and other disaster does follow inexperienced nut removal.

So:

Why not simply check the nut height?

You will then learn how, and will have learned much about the overall setup of your guitar while you are at it.

No really, just check it.

There are very rare and specific exceptions to the procedure below, but you are nowhere near applyng any of them:

Nut Action

In short, do this in order:

- Check the nut
- Check relief (if you use a capo set it EXTREMELY lightly - you will goof up the observation otherwise)
- Check the action height at the 12th fret.

When you get into very light strings and low action, very small changes are a big deal.

A "ski-jump" often refers to an abrupt (or non-continuous) change in the neck/FB that can not be cured as a part of the overall action of the truss rod.

It requires a remarkable amount of heat to make a truly permanent change as you describe.

Chris

[Lawrie]

At the risk of sounding utterly stupid (something I do every time I post....), why, just for experimentation's sake... couldn't you raise the actual bottom of the SLOT with aluminum foil, or paper, or whatever, just to SEE whether a higher-up E string would buzz? Of course it's temporary, but it could roughly suggest that the slot was too deep - no?

You wouldn't put something in the slot itself for it can cause buzzing on it's own. The nut would have to be removed and the shim would go underneath it. The only risk in this is that if the nut was glued incorrectly, it could break when trying to remove it. In the end, you may have to have a new nut cut.... if in fact, that's the issue.

Probably the best advice is to leave it alone for a few days, and if the buzzing continues, take it back. It's a long haul but probably be worth it.

[PTChristopher]

Koj,

Sorry that I ignored your idea of only shimming a single slot (the hole in my tongue is distracting). Yes, I suppose you can stick a sheet of paper in there ending precisely at the front edge of the slot.

But really, just check the nut per the frets.com method.

Chris

[davelang]

Lawrie - great photo re: twisted neck - thanks!

Kojo27 - trust your instincts - it's not "right" until it's working for you.

In the short term, maybe either the original luthier or someone else can fix or explain the problem for you.

In the long term it sounds like you might be getting ready to learn a bit more about how to set up the guitar yourself. Your profile doesn't say where you live. Did you ship the guitar to be setup because of the shop's reputation or because there's nobody local?

I had no desire to learn how to set up my own guitars but was pushed into it after having problems like you're describing with different instruments and different luthiers. There's a lot to learn and tools to buy but that's what worked for me.

ps - how do you know the frets are level?

good luck,
dave

[Kenneth]

Thank you, Chris, for this good info.

[PTChristopher]

>>> [...] for this good info.

Frets.com is, in my opinion, the only online source I have ever seen that has absolutely no ill-advised opinion or advice. Sure some do some things a bit differently than shown, and I have my own quirky methods for some things. But really - for honest, zero BS explanations and advice it is the place to look.

As for me personally, note that I went off on a "do it right, not stupid" rant while failing to respond to the OP's idea of shimming a single string at the nut.

Chris

[teleman3726]

I can't tell you any more about the culprit behind the buzzing than anyone else here.
But, I will tell you that if you're not satisfied with the answers the shop is giving you - viz., you're not getting a straight answer - it's probably because they don't know or don't give a shit.
If you can take it elsewhere after reading our comments then do it.
Nobody should have to put up with crappy service and apathy.
I asked a shop once to set up my Nocaster and the owner did, apparently.
I got the guitar back and began playing it and asked him why it still played out of sorts - like it still needed a set up.
He said he didn't have his tools, and only adjusted the saddles with a knife.
Hahaha!
I loved the look on his face I walked out without paying him.
Putz

Hi teleman - thanks

Low E is the only culprit, yes. It's why I shipped the guitar to the shop in the first place.

Neck relief - there's very little, so I may add just a sliver more (if I don't send it back to the shop a 3rd time). Before sending it back the 2nd time, I "relieved" it until the buzzing stopped, but then the action was 3-4 mm and the neck felt bowed and terrib

I actually am most interested in knowing your opinion of the buzzing -- would you find it acceptable and just play on, as the shop guy is seemingly telling me to do? He says this guitar rivals any guitar he has in his shop, as is. I sorta doubt that. And it bugs me that I shipped it back last time and they did NOTHING. How could they have played it and not noticed this buzzing? Or are they saying it's okay to have that much buzzing? Can't get a straight answer about that. What would YOU do?

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=teleman3726;303154]Personally, buzz is buzz - whether or not it's a solid body or an archtop.
Is the low E the only string that does this?
It's really tough for any of us to tell what the problem is with what you've shown us.
Roger's suggestion (rpguitar) about the capo was intended to get a better line on neck relief.

I think this is a song, Patrick!

I'm wondering if I could get a lead sheet for the head of this tune and a chord chart.?.? (I think Kojo missed my poor attempt at humor. Glad you picked up on it.)

Also, I'm hoping the PTChris can forgo the valium now . . . . . he seems to have a major problem when ever anyone says that their going to start tampering with their nuts.

[PTChristopher]

>>> I'm hoping the PTChris can forgo the valium now . . .

My father has been in the hospital with a hip replacement. He kept turning down the oxycontin, which they would gladly give in Limbaugh-ian doses. Maybe I should have tried to score a hit,...

>>> he seems to have a major problem when ever anyone says that their going to start tampering with their nuts.

Indeed, definite nut-sensitivity (but no nut allergy) here.

As for "avenging angry victim" input (and requisite apocryphal tale), it sounds to me like the luthier is happy to make the OP happy if possible.

Light strings and low action make even daily drifts in wood a practical issue that many of us here would not even notice (with the sort of strings-action-techinique-sensibilites common here).

I am sure that a little objective info, possible adjustment, and only then - a look to technique, would have this situation under control.

It beats 'avenging victim status' as a lifestyle in my opinion.

Chris

[oldane]

I still can't help suspecting that maybe there is nothing wrong with your guitar. And if it ain't broken, don't fix it. Like I said in an earlier post, a guitar strung like yours with those light strings and set up with that low action would buzz like crazy for me too - on any of my guitars. And like I also said, I use 15-56 strings with a higher action than yours to get the cleanness of tone and dynamic range I want. I have easily gotten used to it and I don't feel it hard to play at all. And I'm not a strong Rambo type - rather a lazy, unfit and fat 60 year old.

What I would do is 1) Raise the action and/or 2) put on a heavier set of strings (11-50 or 12-52) and see what happens. If that's what it takes to get the buzz free tone you so obviously want - well, get used to play the guitar with that setup. It will take a week or two and after that you won't give it any second thought.

Like I said, comfort is nice if possible, but it is NOT the first concern when playing a musical instrument, so by all means don't get obsessed with it. Good tone and good intonation comes first, and we must do what it takes to achieve that. Producing good musical sounds often takes a good measure of physical effort. Pianists suffer from tensions in the shoulders and upper back. Violinists suffer from myosis in the neck and shoulders due to the awkward positioning of the violin. Oboists and clarinettists suffer from hemorrhoidal tumors and literally pain in the a$$ due to the high intraabdominal pressure when they play. Jazz bass players wear off the skin of their right index finger so they get blood on their fretboards. Trumpeters often get open wounds on their lips. Louis Armstrong had to sit in front of a mirror in his dressing room before every gig to remove - with great pain - bits of skin from his lips, so they wouldn't clog the small hole in his trumpet mouthpiece. Ben Webster (and Parker and Rollins and Coltrane and ....) played with open mouthpices and a hard reeds, though a mouthpiece with a shallower facing and a softer reed would have been much more confortable.

And bla, bla, bla ...... you get the idea.

[cosmic gumbo]

Most string buzz I encounter on a properly set up guitar usually has to do with my right or left hand technique that needs refining, not the guitar.

[PTChristopher]

[Oldane]>>> I'm [...] a lazy, unfit and fat 60 year old.

We did not know that you were 60.



Sorry, it was just sitting there, waiting to be said.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

[Oldane]>>> I still can't help suspecting that maybe there is nothing wrong with your guitar.


Me too, but in my experience it leaves the player in a far better place to walk through the basics of setup.

In my opinion:

1. Absolutely ANYBODY can follow the basics of set-up in 10 minutes if you walk through it with guitar in hand. (I was trying to start such a walk though on this thread, but I deleted it as soon as the cluster-#@%& started.

2. You can usually find something to improve on any pass through a guitar's set-up - especially on a hyper-critical "light and low" string situation.

3. Now the player sees how it all works and is on the team rather than a bewildered victim (not intending the OP at all here).

It took me a while to get this down, but it really does work far better than saying it's all in your head (or fingers).

Then next time you see the player - you have a confident, knowledgeable, demanding-but-reasonable person who knows more that you ever showed him or her. Weird.

There is the "I'm an angry scared ball-buster customer and I sure showed him in some petty way. Gonna splash somebody in a puddle on my way home too!!!"

There is the "I know what I need to be at my best with the guitar, and I know what I can expect from the best - and I expect the best."

Guess who ends up with the better work.

In my opinion.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Or in short:

Put in a slight bit more relief, possibly LOWER the bridge slightly on the treble side after adjusting the relief - play a bit lighter and you'll be fine.

But better to get there knowing how it all works together for you.

And for laughs: Picture yourself playing horizontally through the string rather than down on the string. Sounds stupid, but try it for a night.

Chris

[Clamps]

This reminds me of kojo's 'aebersold tracks are flat' thread

[Kojo27]

This reminds me of kojo's 'aebersold tracks are flat' thread

How? [btw, I don't think I said the tracks were flat - only that they play flat in some situations, but play in tune in others -- and not because the *tracks* were "weird" -- I was talking about the playback devices. I think. : |]

[Kojo27]

Most string buzz I encounter on a properly set up guitar usually has to do with my right or left hand technique that needs refining, not the guitar.

Hey Cos, this answer actually goes to one of the questions I asked, so are you saying I'm picking too hard or too... whatever, and this causes the sixth string of this particular guitar to buzz? I might add, I have another guitar of this same body style, strung with 10-46, and it buzzeth not at all. Action = 2 mm at bass side, 1.5 mm at treble side. And it has NO neck relief. Zero.

But that's an aside, really. If you think my picking is making the string buzz, I'd love to hear more.

[Kojo27]

I can't tell you any more about the culprit behind the buzzing than anyone else here.
But, I will tell you that if you're not satisfied with the answers the shop is giving you - viz., you're not getting a straight answer - it's probably because they don't know or don't give a shit.
If you can take it elsewhere after reading our comments then do it.
Nobody should have to put up with crappy service and apathy.
I asked a shop once to set up my Nocaster and the owner did, apparently.
I got the guitar back and began playing it and asked him why it still played out of sorts - like it still needed a set up.
He said he didn't have his tools, and only adjusted the saddles with a knife.
Hahaha!
I loved the look on his face I walked out without paying him.
Putz

Thanks, teleman. In fairness to the luthier involved here, he was very willing to look at the guitar again, but he wants me to drive to his shop in person -- I sent him the above video, so I don't know what he plans to correct me on, or show me.... When I first asked to have the job done, I told him I wanted 10 - 46 rounds, and he agreed that this guitar was made for that gauge. It came new with 10 - 46, played fine for a while, I went a while without playing it (about 9 months!) and upon playing it again found that it buzzed. The luthier's words to me were, "I will make it work."

Whether this falls under "crappy service," I'm not sure. Driving won't cost much more than shipping, and I really would like to see somebody there play Green Onions, or some "open E" riff, and play it with gusto, and not hear this low E, cacophonic rattle-fest. I think he wants me to play those $6000 PRS and Gibson models, to see perhaps that some of them have rattles and buzzes as well. Maybe I'll have to accept that 10-46 are "rock" strings. I use 13s on my jazz guitar, 12s another electric -- but for blues of the type I want to learn on this guitar, I want some slinky strings.

BTW, good going for not paying the guy who botched your setup!

Thanks again,

kj

[Kojo27]

GUYS!!!

<sub>You're trying to FIX my guitar, and I do appreciate that; and you're trying to teach me to be a do-it-yourself repair guy (and in a pinch, I really can set up my own guitars! Hard to believe, aye?) But I paid for a setup (and more!) from one of the best in the country, supposedly, and I'm merely holding out to get that done properly.

My original post was pretty clear, I thought. I wanted to know: 1) Do you think this level of buzzing is acceptable? and 2) Am I picking too hard?

I learn a lot from these "repair" posts, and I'm even grateful for them. But I don't have the tools, the space, or the crispness of vision necessary to go in with feeler gauges and machinists' rules, etc. I pay Bob to do this stuff, and he has done it supremely well in the past, for amazingly low prices. But I've been a customer since 1983!

Thanks very much for all the interest and the help - as I said, I've learned some stuff here. I'd really rather know your opinion about the level of buzzing, and about my pick technique.</sub>

[PTChristopher]

Fair enough Koj. Sorry for the clutter in what is supposed to be some other sort of thread in this public forum, I guess. Good luck with this, and enjoy the thread any way that seems to work for you.

[3625]

The man who did this job is a master luthier, certified, whatever that means -- he's in his 60s now, I'd guess, and has done nothing but this all his life. His clients include the best guitarists in the world (some of them, I mean) -- so this is partly why I'm so dumbfounded that he shipped it back this way. He's done work for me since 1983, and he's a great guy, ethical and smart -- but I've shipped it all I'm gonna ship it.

I went through a very similar experience with an archtop refret. Guy had a plek machine, done work for rockstars, etc. When I picked up the axe (after a long waiting time), it buzzed, no question - he said to my face it wasn't, but I can play and I know the score. At the time, he had staff problems and was having trouble keeping up with demand. Basically he did a rush job and charged me a lot of money for it. Later heard bad reports from other people about this guy.

So, took it to a second guy, again with a good rep, and he charged me $50 to tweak the truss rod, and told me flat out he wouldn't re-level the frets, because it was too finicky a job and he was busy building ukes (which were selling like hot cakes, lol).

Took it to a third guy, young guy starting out on his own who had apprenticed with a good luthier. He did a FANTASTIC job, did it quickly and at a reasonable price. He said the job turned out to be a lot more difficult than he thought, because it was a thirty year old axe, and the fingerboard was slightly raised where it joins the body. This guy 'listened' to what this particular axe needed, then acted accordingly.

All up, from start to finish spent about $700.

Stick to your guns Kojo, sounds like you've been hustled

[Kojo27]

Fair enough Koj. Sorry for the clutter in what is supposed to be some other sort of thread in this public forum, I guess. Good luck with this, and enjoy the thread any way that seems to work for you.

[Kojo27]

When I picked up the axe (after a long waiting time), it buzzed, no question - he said to my face it wasn't, but I can play and I know the score.

Stick to your guns Kojo, sounds like you've been hustled

I hope I haven't been hustled, but this is how it feels right now -- it's buzzing like a bastard and he's saying, "No it isn't buzzing." Or actually he yells this, to be heard over the buzzing.

[Bryan T]

Personally, I suspect a series of bad strings.