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I've been trying to research how to do this and have been unable to find any info. I have a few questions:
Stewmac's instructions say you should install a bone saddle between the tailpiece and the guitar. However they are a little vaque as to specifics. The illustration looks like part of the top binding was removed and replaced by the bone saddle. Is this correct? Is it even necessary? WHat is the purpose of the bone saddle? Does it transfer more tone or is there to protect the integrity of the guitar?
Also, these tailpieces have a built in fulcrum that acts as a pivot point on the top of the guitar. This seems to be asking for trouble. Won't that eventually damage the top?
Finally, with the end pin being used to attach the tailpiece, how do you attach a guitar strap? Can you use it as a guitar jack? Do they even make an end pin that works as a guitar jack, a strap holder, AND a tailpiece holder?
thanks in advance
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12-28-2012 06:03 PM
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The bone is intended to protect the wood from the fulcrum/pivot point. On one guitar I own, the binding is missing from that area and bone is inlaid in an 'L' shape that spans the right angle of the top/side joint.
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Thanks. Stewmac's illustration in their instructions was even worse than I thought.
Originally Posted by rpguitar
http://www.stewmac.com/freeinfo/i-5270/3_Tailpiece.gif
Is it possible to install a Benedetto tailpiece without removing the binding? Has anyone tried this?
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I would think you can just deal with the surface protection issue. Removing binding is not exactly an easily reversible procedure! Maybe a piece of thin but hard plastic, or even cardboard, under the pivot (hidden) ought to do it.
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If I may opine here, I have done this.
>>> Stewmac's instructions say you should install a bone saddle between the tailpiece and the guitar. However they are a little vaque as to specifics. The illustration looks like part of the top binding was removed and replaced by the bone saddle. Is this correct? Is it even necessary? WHat is the purpose of the bone saddle? Does it transfer more tone or is there to protect the integrity of the guitar?
It is there to protect the guitar. Your strings will be pulling the full weight (including jewelry) of one of the larger Kardashians all against the edge of the binding - concentrated on the two pieces of the loop as it passes over the binding.
For fun, take a coathanger, bend it over the binding and pull with about 150 pounds on it.
If you refuse, having decided that this may cause some trouble, then in my opinion you have a good grasp of the situation.
Yes, you can make an overlay instead of removing some binding. But this overlay needs to be remarkably strong and well suited to distributing the load.
I have made one from brass (blackened it looks remarkably good) with a layer of leather behind it. This will damage the lacquer finish some, but if you use undyed leather the finish can be repaired someday if needed.
I have had ebony overlays fail, but maybe I was not 'pure of heart' while installing it.
BUT, and its a big butt (staying with the Kardashian theme),...
If the overlay gets too thick, you will mess up the fulcrum action. So I suggest 1/16" brass, some un-dyed leather, and some brass black (from Birchwood Casey).
Bending 1/16th brass is quite difficult without a bending break. Also brass work-hardens so consider this as both a benefit and a potential problem.
>>> Also, these tailpieces have a built in fulcrum that acts as a pivot point on the top of the guitar. This seems to be asking for trouble. Won't that eventually damage the top?
Yes. Now the load on the fulcrum can be quite light depending on the hight of the fulcrum, the height of the bridge, and the shape of the top near the rim.
You can simply accept this, or also try to spread the load some. Ebony is great in this situation, along with more un-dyed leather.
If this is all sounding like a bit of work and asking for some experience, then this is consistent with my opinion.
>>> Finally, with the end pin being used to attach the tailpiece, how do you attach a guitar strap? Can you use it as a guitar jack? Do they even make an end pin that works as a guitar jack, a strap holder, AND a tailpiece holder?
Yes, there is a specific jack that works as a jack, strap button and anchor for your Saccconi loop. It also chops, dices, makes mountains of Julienne Fries (whatever those are), and slices tomatoes so thin your in-laws will never come back.
If you use such a jack please consider that the oft-successful method is to make the jack a friction fit into the tail block. The Kardashian-weight pull on the Sacconi loop will hold the jack/endpin in place.
But this is also a non-super-easy install.
All in my opinion.
And why are you doing this? And on what guitar?
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 12-28-2012 at 08:21 PM. Reason: spelling errors
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having no experience with the benedetto
but in looking at the diagram
the issue appears to be
soild contact with the guitar and fasterner, allowing the pivot freedom away from the guitar
as an thought only, assuming you dont want to mess with inlaying a saddle into the binding, (i wouldnt)
cringe though you may, i have used razor blade metal-very very thin and hard-but cutable with the right sheers-wear eye protection!! i have done this shimming buts for flloyd rose units-it makes for great connection between parts, transferring vibrations etc, and they are thin and can be stacked, even angled using a thin piece on top of a wider piece (like a fulcrum, but a very small step)
not seeng the situation, i was wondering, can you move the entire fastining tail unit slightly outward from the end of the bout, using a shim between it and the gurtar body, which in turn would avoid it rubbing on the binding-
the hard metal will be no different, i assume, than the tail itself-(but could leave an imprint if insufficinetly wide) , and it would serve as a solid shim, held in place by the screw pressure against the tail ???
by moving it outward a tad, it should reduce or eliminate the unit rubbing againgst the binding, if i understand things
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Oh and, I have used Ebony successfully as an inlay, but not as an overlay.
As an inlay, if the material (bone, ebony, etc.) will have an "L" cross section, then you need to make sure it is well supported underneath with no gap under the L.
In my opinion.
Chris
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I had a luthier (I use the word loosely) install one of these on my archtop. I don't recommend this tailpiece. The fulcrum didn't quite match up with the piece of replaced binding and now, a few years later, I have a pretty significant dimple in the top of the guitar. The way the thing is designed, it would be very tricky to get it to line up with the binding.
There are similar tailpieces that have a hinge that screws into the side of the guitar and the tailpiece itself makes no contact with the top. Much better design.
Don't forget when you install a wooden tailpiece that you need to fashion some sort of string ground. The guy who installed mine never thought of that and I had to go back and do it myself.
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I just had a solid ebony w/ solid brass bottom tailpiece installed..of course I paid a professional whose done it before...no need to attempt to reinvent the wheel...sometimes it's simply smarter to pay a pro rather than make a not ready for prime time attempt at something you're not familiar with...IMO. besides, if one needs to fill holes that aren't needed by the new tailpiece who better than a qualified luthier.
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 12-29-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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>>> The fulcrum didn't quite match up with the piece of replaced binding
Gents,
The fulcrum is not designed to contact the binding or a bone (or whatever) hardened edge.
The fulcrum would not be a fulcrum if it did.
The dimple in the top is an artifact of the design and installation.
The idea is to handle most of the load on the hardened edge, but use the mechanical advantage of the fulcrum to create the space away from the top. The need for this is obvious once you install and string one up.
This tailpiece design in question here can be seen possibly as arguably not the most elegant evolution from the classical stringed instrument family tailpiece to the quite different morphology of our archtop guitars.
Somehow that can sound disrespectful. But the questions raised here all go directly (in the style of "The Emperor's New Clothes") to the details of this design that may be less than ideal to some.
Now, you do not need a fulcrum, and I made a tailpiece with a Sacconi loop with no fulcrum last winter because I also do not like the dented top. But using the Stewmac-supplied Benedetto design really (no, really) does require a hardened edge between the top and the rim for the loop to pass over - with lots of tension/weight/pressure. It also will dent the top under the fulcrum in many installations.
You can make an ebony/leather pad for under the fulcrum (run the grain north/south, which can seem counter-intuitive). But at some point you do have to wonder if you are fighting the whole design a bit too much.
On string grounding:
Many feel that a well-shielded and humbucking-PU setup does not require grounded strings. And often this is certainly the case.
Unfortunately, I have found that in dry conditions you can still get all sorts of static discharge artifacts with ungrounded strings. This is not classic AC hum.
For example, a plastic-jacketed cable dragging on a floor can generate static that you can hear through the amp. But with grounded strings - and one's fingers attached to them - this high-voltage (but miniscule current) charge will not be a practical signal problem.
All in my opinion - well, except for the practical definition of fulcrum.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 12-28-2012 at 09:30 PM.
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Why???
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I was hoping to hear from the OP as to why as well.
It is a cool look to some.
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I really do not care for the look. But, I might be weird.?.?
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My two cents on the grounding thing.
I asked Bob Benedetto a few years ago in Montréal about how to ground this tailpiece.
He said that his pick ups were so well shielded that you really don't need a string ground on the guitar. I thought "errrrrr okay Bob…" He then said that he has a few customers who still insist on the string grounding and he will put a brass strip in the tailpiece. He scrapes away a bit of the insulation from the ligature and can ground it through the end pin
A few weeks later I was shielding my jazz master to the hilt and thought okay let's try this. Surprisingly, Bob was correct.
I have to admit that string grounding myths are one of my biggest pet peeves in any Internet forum.
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Thanks for all the info. I'm starting to believe that there are better alternatives out there.
I will making this mod on one of these:
http://www.freedomguitar.com/images/...iel5004622.jpg
It's a Carlo Robelli EL500. Although there are few superficial cosmetic differences (tailpiece, headstock, pickguard shape and fretboard inlays) for all practical purposes it's an Epiphone Emperor Regent. I think it was even built in the same factory. Although it's not a Gibson L7 it's a perfectly respectable guitar and well suited to my intermediate level of musicianship. I love it! I love it so much in fact that I bought another one that I plan on keeping un-modified.
I will be removing the electronics and using it strictly as an acoustic guitar. I will however be installing a K&K pure archtop transducer. Before you start wondering why I would do such a screw-ball thing take a look at what another member of this forum did to his Emperor. It was his vids and pics that inspired me. You can see photo's and a video here:
Fitting ebony tailpiece
After all the helpful insights I've received I may have to rethink the benedetto tailpiece. I like the buscarino above but it costs $250. I don't think that's very cost effective considering the cost of the guitar. Does anyone know of cheaper ebony/brass alternative?
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i've installed the Benedetto TP with and without the bone insert and i can say this:
- bone insert, not too tough to tackle if you have some tools and decent woodworking knowledge. if not, a luthier can do it inexpensively.
- without - if you have plastic binding or a wood edge, the Sacconi cables will depress that area causing a couple of dents. This will eventually stabilize, so not a big deal.
i've also shielded and grounded the wood TPs with some and left others alone. No major differences noted ever.
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As Chris said, the bone has nothing to do with the fulcrum, it is there to strengthen the edge where the sacconi loop applies pressure on the binding. The fulcrum rests directly on the top. The pressure point on the top is not a new concept. Gibson did it with the "varitone" tailpiece installed on L5's and Super 400's beginning in 1939. Here is a photo of my '89 Benedetto Fratello, showing the bone, the sacconi loop and the fulcrum. The second photo is my '63 L5, showing the adjustable varitone feature that they used on the old style tailpieces (not on recent versions). It isn't exactly a fulcrum on the Gibson because the tailpiece is not hinged, but it raises and lowers the tailpiece slightly and makes contact with the top in about the same place as the Benedetto tailpiece. Originally Posted by PTChristopher
Keith
Last edited by floatingpickup; 12-29-2012 at 09:46 AM.
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I will be getting a 1969 Super 400CES in April 2013 with a Varitone in the tailpiece. What is it supposed to do?
It couldn't have worked as expected because Gibson jettisoned it.
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The Varitone allows you to adjust the position of the tail piece upward or downward, thereby altering the break angle over the bridge saddle. They did work fine in doing that. But, as you can see from the photo of the L5 in the post above yours, the roller part of the Varitone makes direct contact with the top and rolls or rocks on it. The effects were detrimental and damaging to the top. The newer tail pieces on the L5 and Super 400 still have the opening for the hex key . . but the y are no longer functional as the roller portion has been eliminated.
A 1969 Super 400? Nice! Does it have the standard 1-11/16" nut? Some/many from that era were 1-5/8" Also, is it an orangel label? Does it have a volute on the back of the head stock? Is it stamped Made in USA? All of these things matter to some and affect its value.
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>>> Varitone in the tailpiece. What is it supposed to do?
As mentioned by P2, it is supposed to change the break angle. In practice, it changes the break angle slightly, which does nothing whatsoever.
It is a very effective way to make indentations in the top, with the short distance to the very stiff bent angle in the tailpiece. If you wanted to dent a pile of tops, this would be a great tool.
The Benedetto fulcrum is a different thing really and is required in most cases to make the bottom-load string holes/slots work. If you loaded the strings in many of the other ways a tailpiece can work, then you can skip the fulcrum so long as the hardened edge (bone or otherwise) extends even slightly above the top of the binding. And even if it is level with the binding, you will often be OK depending on the bridge height and the archtop shape.
Arhctop aesthetics:
In my opinion, most archtops fall into one of three broadly draw aesthetic categories:
- Classical
A Benedetto La Venezia would be a great example.
- Art Deco
The D'Angelico look and maybe more so the Montellone Radio City.
- The middle of the road Gibson look
The L5, 175, the Guilds, the Epiphones, etc.
And I suppose a fourth category:
- The post modern
This would be all the weird and workable cat eyes, wacky shapes, or post-nuclear-apocalypse decor we see on some very fine modern archtops.
The Benedetto tailpiece preserves the bottom-load feature of a classical stringed instrument that in some ways is incompatible with the actual layout of an archtop. It is not a viola/cello, even if it follows the design aesthetics of one.
In my opinion.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 12-29-2012 at 01:02 PM.
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Thank you, Patrick. Consider me......educated. Originally Posted by Patrick2
It has no volute. It has an orange label. It is not stamped Made in USA on the back of the headstock. It looks like 1 11/16" to me but 1 5/8" would not be a deal-breaker. It has new frets without nibs. And a replaced pickguard and wooden bridge. Everything else is original. The back of the headstock has fine hairline lacquer checks all over it like cracked glass, only apparent when the light falls on it just right.
Last edited by Jabberwocky; 12-29-2012 at 01:07 PM.
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How 'bout this one?? Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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Thank you, Chris. With all the obsessive types out there (and I count myself amongst them), I wonder how many tops with Varitones survived the "I guess I will just make one more turn". Originally Posted by PTChristopher
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yep, those buscarino's aren't cheap, but they're well built...the brass bottom plate is thick, not like ordinary tailpiece plates...not that it matters. I didn't have to install it so I wasn't concerned. it'll be here on Weds. and I'll post a pic attached to the git' Originally Posted by kw3rd
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Alternatives, alternatives: ebonyarchtoptailpiece .
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