Fiber-board as middle layer of a maple laminate top.

**Jabberwocky** · 12-24-2012, 05:00 AM

I found a maple laminated guitar of American provenance for sale. It is a prototype of recent manufacture with fiber-board as the middle layer of a maple laminate top. The manufacturer is highly regarded (but it is not Big G).

The term fiber-board fills my mind with associations with cheap particle board furniture and cheap tool shed pegboards.

What is the highest quality of fiber-board which could possibly be used in this application? Is fiber-board as cheap as it sounds? It is apparently the same fiber-board that is used in headstock overlays and binding.

The dealer told me that it was used to warm up the tone, to give it a much jazzier electric tone than original (production) run, and to reduce its acoustic activity.

Soliciting your sage advice and educated opinions.

TH · 12-24-2012, 08:16 AM

The history of guitar tops is a mixture of cost cutting tactics spun to seem advantageous (Martin's introduction of the three piece back promoted as an "improvement") and genuine innovation (honeycomb layers between spruce in low mass high stiffness classical tops) and much of it depends on 1) why the change was made, 2) what re-engineering went into the design of the instrument to accommodate the new properties (a laminate top instrument would have different arching patterns than a solid top, if you were going after an acoustic property to the sound, which you may not necessarily want anyway) and 3) what the artist does with a tool that possesses new properties (one man's nightmare is another man's voice.)

Fiber-board is wood material in a matrix of glue. That can mean a lot; wood content %, glue material and density, how fine the wood material is before it's thrown into the soup... My opinion, based soully on the history of the industry and nothing else, is it's cheap, fast and the brainchild of a cheap and fast mentality. Yes it probably does have a "warmer" tone, catch phrase for attenuated high frequencies and less definition in the overtones. That may work to the advantage in someone playing horn lines or looking for a rolled back consistency. That may not work so well for someone who gets inspiration from playing a piece of wood that has a rich responsive snap after the attack. There's my ignorant opinion.
How is the guitar fitted? Do the electronics compliment the characteristics of the top material? Is so much string energy lost in the damping properties of the fiber matrix that sustain is compromised? And here's the biggest one: Do YOU believe it's better?
This thread will be filled with all sorts of opinions and the most useful ones will be the ones you agree with after you've tried it; if you're a player.
Here's my bottom line-an instrument is a tool for translating musical thought. If you make a guitar out of garbage landfill and in your life it serves as a conduit for your thoughts, it's a good match. If you have the choice and a constructed laminate material guitar fits your sensibilities more than a D'Angelico, then it's a true match. It's an instrument of music.
David

**rpguitar** · 12-24-2012, 08:17 AM

To me it sounds like a material chosen explicitly by design to suit a desired sonic and physical purpose, not just to be cheap. As such, I'd consider the resulting instrument's virtues in achieving that design goal as my first order of business. Not saying I think it's a design goal worth pursuing (LESS acoustic quality would never be a reason for me to buy a hollowbody guitar; we have other forms that achieve it and are more convenient to deal with).

**mr. beaumont** · 12-24-2012, 12:04 PM

It'll be rather "unlively" acoustically (and feedback resistant) and quite strong. probably a good guitar for someone who plays amplified and gigs often, wanting a "rugged" instrument.

If it sounds good, it is good.

**Jim Soloway** · 12-24-2012, 12:25 PM

Given that it's supposedly a prototype and that it wasn't used in the production version, my first question is whether it was used because it's easier to work with in the molding process. Prototypes are about finding answers to a lot of different questions and a lot of decisions that go into them have nothing to do with tone. That may well be the case in this one.

**Spook410** · 12-24-2012, 01:01 PM

Originally Posted by TruthHertz

T<snip> gets inspiration from playing a piece of wood that has a rich responsive snap after the attack. <snip>

Inspiration and ringing woody resonance go together. There is a good argument for plugged in performance, but I'm guessing Jabb has Gibson's that cover that already.

**Jabberwocky** · 12-25-2012, 02:46 PM

Thank you all for your thoughts. They have been elucidating. The guitar in discussion is a one-off Collings Eastside LC prototype made in 2012. It is available at JG Stewart's myjazzhome.com, if anyone's interested.

**Elias Graves** · 12-26-2012, 06:25 PM

Collings meets danelectro?

**GNAPPI** · 12-27-2012, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by Elias Graves

Collings meets danelectro?

Ha Haaaaaa.....!

Love it!

**Encinitastubes** · 12-27-2012, 12:55 AM

Is that what they use in all the middle layers of their Eastsides? It looks like a deep cut model. There seem to be quite a few of those prototypes floating around.

**Jabberwocky** · 12-27-2012, 06:27 AM

Originally Posted by Encinitastubes

Is that what they use in all the middle layers of their Eastsides? It looks like a deep cut model. There seem to be quite a few of those prototypes floating around.

No, it is a one-off prototype. The production Eastside LCs do NOT have fiber-board as the middle layer of the maple laminate top.

**Encinitastubes** · 12-27-2012, 10:18 AM

It doesn't say anything about that on the site. Do (did) they disclose that to you?

**Playerizor** · 12-27-2012, 10:24 AM

Considering the cost of a Collings guitar I doubt they made a material choice just to save $20.

**Jabberwocky** · 12-27-2012, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by Encinitastubes

It doesn't say anything about that on the site. Do (did) they disclose that to you?

John G. Stewart is a reputable and reliable dealer. I trust him. The one-off prototype was sent to him for his evaluation and later to sell as a dealer. Collings made the decision not to pursue the fiber-board middle layer construction after this ONE-OFF prototype as they did with the four Deep Body prototypes.

As Playerizor said, Collings is not the type of company to make a material choice to save $20.

You could always write to Collings for verification.

Edit: I did a search for Vulcanized Fiber or Fishpaper. It was an interesting read.

**Encinitastubes** · 12-27-2012, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

John G. Stewart is a reputable and reliable dealer. I trust him. The one-off prototype was sent to him for his evaluation and later to sell as a dealer. Collings made the decision not to pursue the fiber-board middle layer construction after this ONE-OFF prototype as they did with the four Deep Body prototypes.

As Playerizor said, Collings is not the type of company to make a material choice to save $20.

You could always write to Collings for verification.

Edit: I did a search for Vulcanized Fiber or Fishpaper. It was an interesting read.

Thanks. I didn't mean to imply that either the dealer or Collings was not operating above the board. I was just confused about the prototype aspect of the guitar. My experience with Collings has been stellar and I'm sure the dealer is as well. Hope I didn't offend anyone. If so, my apologies.

I'm bummed that Collings only made four deep-body Eastside LCs. I've seen three of them for sale so I just assumed more were around. I would really like one of them to be my next purchase, but need to wait until after April 15th to purchase anything. Having come from playing (Collings) OMs and classical guitars, I find the deep body much more comfortable. However, I doubt any will be around at that point. Wonder why they did not make the deep body a standard option.

**Encinitastubes** · 12-27-2012, 01:44 PM

Also, re the fiberboard one that you initially asked about, Have you played it? I would love to know how it compares.

**Jabberwocky** · 12-27-2012, 02:07 PM

Sorry, man. I live too faraway from any decent Collings dealer to have played it. So, I rely on research, educated opinions and intuition with any guitar. When I do press the order button, I hope that luck is on my side. Otherwise, take a bath on it and sell it on.

John G. tells me that it has a warmer electric tone plugged in compared with standard production Eastside LCs. It also has less "acoustic activity" than standard. I don't know what that means but interpret it as less feedback prone and less acoustic-stringy sounding. In other words, more ES-175 like. I read the remarks as the top being stiffer, less resonant and less "live" than the standard top. One other archtop maker has tried it with Nomex, another cellulose fiber/fibre-based material.

Collings preferred the more focussed sound of the standard Eastside LC to the Deep Body. I don't know if they plan to bring the Deep Body back into limited run production in the future but for now, the 2.5" Eastside LC with maple laminates is the standard. The Deep Body is only about a 0.5" thicker or about 20% greater in volume.

There is one last Full Dark Cherry Sunburst Deep Body for sale over at Gryphon Stringed Instrument. The other three, Natural at Hill Country Guitars, Natural at Gryphon Stringed Instruments, Full Tobacco Sunburst at Acoustic Music Works are either sold or on hold.

I hear murmurings of an Eastside LC Deluxe being introduced in 2013. I found a prototype here: http://www.acousticmusicworks.com/eastsideLC12033.html .