Gibson vs. Heritage

[rpguitar]

Everybody is debating the monetary value of the two brands, and nobody is really talking about their intrinsic value as musical instruments. Does that mean no one here cares, or that it's a given that they are essentially equals from that perspective...?

[PTChristopher]

>>> their intrinsic value as musical instruments. Does that mean no one here cares, or that it's a given that they are essentially equals from that perspective...?

I certainly consider them equals as instruments.

Chris

[amusiathread]

You lost me on the supermodel analogy. Unless you're considering that supermodels aren't hired for talent or personality, or even looks. They're hired for marketability. And anyone will tell you, supermodels are lazy and unimaginative in the sack.

[RonD]

I thought people who could actually understand Jazz would be smarter than this. Sad.

[PTChristopher]

Sort of a cowardly remark there. Do you have a view on the guitars and the somewhat interesting question from the OP? You know, after you get over the sadness.

These are friends here who are sorting this out.

Chris

[Patrick2]

I thought people who could actually understand Jazz would be smarter than this. Sad.

C'mon Ron . . . it's really not so sad. Even the most serious and the most accomplished of jazz mucians joke around a bit . . . even when on the band stand in a gig situation. Certainly, let us not forget we are jazz guitarists . . or aspiring to be . . . but, we are also silly guys as well.

It seems that once we all realized that we were on (somewhat) common ground . . . we just started playing around a bit. (except, of course my comments about Charlize Theron .. . . Dayum!!!)

I gotta laugh at amusiathread, and his comments on super models being lazy and unimaginative in the sack. Unless, of course, he speaks from the experience he has from countless episodes of doin' the wild thing with super models. But, we ALL on this thread know that only PTChristopher has had such good fortune.

[iim7V7IM7]

A Gibson will cost more initially and if history is a teacher will appreciate. The same can be said of Fender's and Martin's better instruments. This doesn't make them sonically better, more finely made or more beautiful (in fact, my experience has been the opposite). It simply makes them more valued. Myself, I have always been attracted to tone, quality and beauty in instruments. The longer that I play, the more that I appreciate it.

Will my Ron Kirn Strat appreciate like a Fender Custom Shop Strat? Of course not. Is it a better instrument? Without question in my opinion. Is my Bourgeois OM going to appreciate like a Martin Marquis? Nope, but it is a better guitar. I feel the same about my Heritage instruments as well. The "street price" of a Gibson L5 Blonde is the same as the Comins Archtop that I have on order. Which is the superior instrument and which is the superior investment? I use stocks, bonds and cash when investing and not guitars.

I have NEVER chosen an instrument as an investment. I do however evaluate the relative quality/craftsmanship and tone.

My $.02

[PTChristopher]

>>> wild thing with super models. But, we ALL on this thread know that only PTChristopher has had such good fortune.

Oh man, definitely.

When I was eleven I made this really super model of the Bismarck, then we blew it up on pond with firecrackers. It was a WILD time,...

Chris

[amusiathread]

Irrelevant analogies and heated arguments aside, I am grateful that the market for jazz guitars is so diverse. There are some great companies and talented builders out there providing us with a huge range of choices. I think gibson archtops are fine instruments, but the name, resale value, marketing, and artist endorsements just aren't worth the extra money to me. So I have other choices! That's so cool.

On a sidenote, you can end up with a fine guitar at jaw-dropping low prices if you seek out talented up-and-coming luthiers who are still trying to get their names out there. If you ask me, "vibe factor" from owning a guitar from an unsung, underappreciated luthier trumps the "I play the same guitar as so-and-so" factor (all other factors equal, of course).

[RonD]

Sort of a cowardly remark there. Do you have a view on the guitars and the somewhat interesting question from the OP? You know, after you get over the sadness.

These are friends here who are sorting this out.

Chris

Chris,
Sorry if my comment came across this way. Perhaps, it's the wine.
As you have said, many times, we are in a "golden age" for arch-top guitars.
I, like you, have been around long enough to have seen some pretty nasty gear.
These days, guitars are available from all parts of the world that surpass in quality anything that I can remember from years gone by, at a very reasonable price.
I guess my comment was motivated by my interpretation of what, to me, seems to be the reason for owning/playing these instruments.
Playing music, specifically, Jazz.
Sorry if my opinion caused offense.
btw, I do not own either Gibson or Heritage guitars. I have however, owned both.
Cheers, Ron

[RonD]

Patrick. I'm blaming California vintners for my sadness... or, at least, my comments...

[amusiathread]

Patrick-"I gotta laugh at amusiathread, and his comments on super models being lazy and unimaginative in the sack. Unless, of course, he speaks from the experience he has from countless episodes of doin' the wild thing with super models. But, we ALL on this thread know that only PTChristopher has had such good fortune."

Haha, that was more a generalization about my experience with gorgeous women vs. women who were "everyday-pretty". The latter were more human and interesting in every respect.

Funny thing is, that is parallel to my experience with guitars that were more extravagant and coveted, verses those that were very nice, but more modest.

I guess everything in life is analagous to everything else. I stand corrected.

[PTChristopher]

Hi Ron,

Sorry for my over-reaction there.

As best I can tell we all actually play the guitar, and understand that in the end it is the player and instrument that matter vs. the name or marketing ethos of the manufacturer.

But the OP has an angle on this, and felt like kicking it around some.

I think that even remotely intelligent actual guitar players can also exchange a few thumbs to the eyeball on some sidebar topics - and come out as still-smart friends.

Chris

[RonD]

Hi Chris,
No worries. It just confuses me, the amount of energy that gets expended on these topics.
It's gear.
I'd much rather hear about some album/player that I'm not familiar with.
Most of the action on the forum, however, seems to be here.
Oh well.
Cheers, Ron

[amusiathread]

Ron: the action is all here because we can all get worked up and in a heated argument over differences in opinion, throw some blows, and all walk away friends. It's like a "fight club" for jazz musicians all over the world. In the end, we all know that no one is objectively right, no opinions have been swayed, but the fun is in the debate.

I'm always game for hearing about new players and albums! But I tend to be less traditional, extremely eclectic, and more modern, than the majority of listeners here, so I swap listening notes with different groups of friends.

[hot ford coupe]

Ok hfc . . . I know what you're trying to say. And, as it relates to guitars I do agree with your anology. But, jabber did mention . . . Charlize Theron. I really don't care what her sister or sisters might look like. Nor do I care if Charlize is high maintenance. If I gotta poke someone from her family . . . well, I'm gonna do Charlize. I really have no idea what God was trying to accomplish . . . other than to really mess with the minds of men . . . when he created Charlize.

Oh . . by the way WTF was jabber talking about with that MIT anology??? Did he go through a bad situation at school????

Ah yes, I understand the Charlize reference. This now is a different situation altogether. You're talking about a specific entity here. At this point, you're talking about Wes' L5, Kenny Burrell's Super 400CES or Johnny Smith's Johnny Smith. There's no substitute for Charlize Theron. There just isn't no matter how you look at it. There just isn't.

[Patrick2]

Ah yes, I understand the Charlize reference. This now is a different situation altogether. You're talking about a specific entity here. At this point, you're talking about Wes' L5, Kenny Burrell's Super 400CES or Johnny Smith's Johnny Smith. There's no substitute for Charlize Theron. There just isn't no matter how you look at it. There just isn't.

OK . . . I would love to say. . . "yeah . . . now you get it". But, truth be told, my references to Charlize Theron had absolutely nothing to do with anything at all related to guitars in even the slightest way.

[fumblefingers]

it was purported that one guitar cost "about half" of the other. if so the 35% discount is half as much discount too.

that's all.

Gibson L5CES Musician's Friend MSRP $14,115. At a 40% discount, street selling price is $8,500.

Heritage Eagle Classic . . (pretty much an L5CES) MSRP $5,520. At a 40% discount $3,312

Heritage Golden Eagle, spec'd with 2 inset pups, MSRP $7,100. At a 40% discount $4,260.

Gibson L5CES . . . used price mint condition . . $5,000 (non vintage)
Heritage Golden Eagle . . used price . . mint condition, $3,000

Gibson L5CES . . retained value . . 41%
Heritage GE . . retained value . . . 70%

Loss in dollars:

Gibson . . . . . . . $3,500
Heritage GE . . . $1,260

Used L5CES' might be selling for $200 or $300 below $5,000
Used GEs might be selling for $200 or $300 below $3,000

But, you get the Idea. The numbers don't lie! Would you like me to make a similar comparison with the Super 400 against the Super Eagle? The numbers look even uglier for Gibson in that comparison.

Now, with that being said, you'l not find a stronger supporter/lover of Gibson Historic Collection arch top guitars than I am, anywhere on the plant!! However, I would defy anyone to make the argument that the L5CES' and the Super 400s are any better than their Heritage counter parts.

Now, the invaluable intangible . . . ONLY an L5CES, is an L5CES . . . and ONLY a Super 400, is a Super 400 . . . and that's a fact!!![/quote]


yeah, times change. i sold a Norlin era L5CES for more than twice as much as I paid - new. and that was to GC no less. but that was 20 years ago.

and as has been said, if you want a Gibson only a Gibson will do. same as with a Benedetto or Monteleone, or in the classical world - Bernabe, Romanillos, etc.

can we simply say that Heritage delivers a lot of bang for the buck? i think we can! and for some, that is paramount. can't really argue with that.

on the other hand, the incessant whining about Gibson's pricing gets tiring. if you don't like it, just get something else! if enough people do that the pricing will change, the models will be discontinued, or the business model will fail. they could always make 'em in China I guess.

[Patrick2]

yeah, times change. i sold a Norlin era L5CES for more than twice as much as I paid - new. and that was to GC no less. but that was 20 years ago.

and as has been said, if you want a Gibson only a Gibson will do. same as with a Benedetto or Monteleone, or in the classical world - Bernabe, Romanillos, etc.

can we simply say that Heritage delivers a lot of bang for the buck? i think we can! and for some, that is paramount. can't really argue with that.

on the other hand, the incessant whining about Gibson's pricing gets tiring. if you don't like it, just get something else! if enough people do that the pricing will change, the models will be discontinued, or the business model will fail. they could always make 'em in China I guess.

Agreed! So, again. .. what's your point?? I own 7 wonderful Gibsons. Two Historic Reissue L5s . . .a Historic Reissue 335 and four Custom Shop Historic Reissue Les Pauls. They're ALL amazing instruments. I paid the Gibson price points because I wanted a Gibson. That's the nature of supply/demand marketing. I'm now on the hunt for that oh so perfect Super 400. How the price point on it compares to the price point of a Super Eagle will be totally irrelavent to me.

Judge them unto themselves .. . ..not their alternatives!!

[Spook410]

I would only whine about Gibson pricing if they offered a unique product. As there are several outstanding alternatives at reasonable prices, Gibson's offerings are simply OBE.

BTW.. Gibson has 'made them in China' for awhile. Has an 'Epiphone' on the headstock and some of them are quite good.

[fumblefingers]

i wasn't thinking of Epiphone, but then i never have.

here's the only salient point that i have to make - Charlize was pretty cute in that first movie with James Spader (2 days in the Valley) in which she was some kind of hit-woman with the tight white jeans that went up her tight little rear.

but she doesn't hold a candle to the above mentioned Monica Bellucci. Monica simply smolders.

[hot ford coupe]

OK . . . I would love to say. . . "yeah . . . now you get it". But, truth be told, my references to Charlize Theron had absolutely nothing to do with anything at all related to guitars in even the slightest way.

Yeah, I kinda figured that but it was a way for me to keep on topic. I never compare women to guitars. As far as Monica Belluci is concerned, fumblefingers, I can definitely agree with you there. Check her out in the movie Sorcerer's Apprentice or the "R" rated movie Braham Stoker's Dracula. You definitely won't be disappointed.

[Kuz]

well, I won't loose money on these cause they going no where .....

[Jabberwocky]

Everybody is debating the monetary value of the two brands, and nobody is really talking about their intrinsic value as musical instruments. Does that mean no one here cares, or that it's a given that they are essentially equals from that perspective...?

Aha! Clarity! They're essentially equals as musical instruments. And this thread wouldn't have even got started if we had all just realized that and let it be.

Yes, insightful, Pat2. Gave myself away. It was that obvious, huh? Dubious honor of being rejected by MIT.......and CalTech. They're still the gold standard. Rankles to this very day. I was not quite "good" enough. But as you grow older, you realize it was just a teenage identity crisis thing.

It's about having a sense of wry humor, RonD. C'mon, can't jazz cats make or take a joke? A nudge, nudge, wink, wink, moment? It's Larry, Curly and Moe. Who's on First? Abbott and Costello. Are we gonna be dour, pursed lips, oh so serious, turtle-necked, grimacing artist(e)s who play as if they're not having fun? The artist-intellectual-wundermensch is in DA HOUSE. Quiet. Quiet. QUIET! I would only take that shit from Mr. Keith Jarrett. I wasn't old enough to catch the late great Mr. Bill Evans; I'd gladly take that AttA Tude from him too. Leave the smartness by the side and let it all hang out for the moment.

This was not a serious thread from the get-go. Read the original post. It's Bird vs. Magic. It's Mohammed Ali vs. Smoking Joe Frazier. Ali vs. Big Bad George Foreman. Thrilla in Manila. Rumble in the Jungle. (Sigh. Back when men fought like men.) If we're gonna get silly and trash-talk, let's take silly and trash-talk to the max. AH Em GonNA DisssstRoiyyee U.

Yeah, PT, you out-ted me there, dude. I'm not one who can ACTUALLY play. But, hey, I enjoy "tawking" like I know how. Mixolydian over V, Super Locrian over Diminished, playing in the "pocket", mutha-f$$king this, mutha-f$$ker that, love Miles, gave me a whole new vocabulary and grammar. Mutha-f##ker as punctuation, adjective, adverb. Sorry, mom, gonna wash my mouth out with soap now. Yeah, I also have a purported collection of 12 Gibson archtops that exists only in my overwrought feverish imagination, like the smell of almonds on a tropical night.

Heritage guitars are fine playing instruments. It's just the repeated Gibson bashing that gets old real fast. They are what they are. Each marque finds its own acolytes. I don't own stock in Gibson. I don't even like the way Henry J runs the company. But it is a venerable American institution which has survived many crises. It's got History on its side. I can count on Gibson to keep the art and craft of American luthiery alive. I am not so sure what's going to happen to Heritage when its founding members pass on.

Between Heritage and Gibson, I'd double up and buy a Gibson. (Used, of course.) It is just a choice I make. But I'm not going to take a swipe at Heritage just because.......

Ah well, a new thread; Collings vs. Gibson next? Game?

[Jazz_175]

Ah well, a new thread; Collings vs. Gibson next? Game?

Collings wins, no doubt.