1957 Gibson L-4C (Inlays?)

**Philco** · 10-07-2012, 01:09 AM

Yes I HAVE been looking at that one.....and they have just dropped the price.
Really beautiful instrument. Love the back.
I would somehow darken that fretboard and I'd be happy.
I have a silly aversion to light coloured boards.

BUT........it's 17" and I already have a wonderful L5 Wesmo the same size.
I can't tell you how much I love this instrument. I play it almost constantly and I've bonded with it very well. It has the perfect neck, action and such a beautiful woody tone and depth.

So I'm looking for something 16' that I'm not scared to gig with.
I have a 1961 ES125 coming next week and that may very well be the gigging guitar I'm looking for.

BTW what's the vibe on those McCarty pickups? Are they P90'ish or do they have a reputation for a particular sound?

**Eddie Lang** · 10-07-2012, 01:19 AM

@ Philco: I don't find it childish. A guitar has to feel right and that may involve any or all five senses... well maybe not taste...

**Jabberwocky** · 10-07-2012, 08:16 AM

Originally Posted by Philco

.....

BTW what's the vibe on those McCarty pickups? Are they P90'ish or do they have a reputation for a particular sound?

For that, I hand you over to :

.

You don't need an excuse to own yet another 17" Gibson. For one, the Montana L-7C is X-braced. For another, it is a pure acoustic. For a third, for the price you're looking to pay for that dubious 1957 L-4C, you may as well get a 2008 L-7C with no known issues. The McCarty pickup/pickguard alone is worth about $250 to $300.

**Dennis D** · 10-07-2012, 10:17 AM

I just did some digging on Gbase, and there are more than a couple L-7's recent, older, etc etc., some basically new, acoustics only.
That having been said, I think that's a great instrument, just not with that McCarty. If that were a home they'd call it a 'teardown', 'cause it's worth more without the pickup, and the cost to remove and replace it, than it is with it.
My opinion - but if you bought it and one day got tired of the pickup - -which I think would happen - you'd get real tired of it real fast, and then it'd have to go away.......meaning $$$ out the window...
Again, MHO

Dennis

**Jabberwocky** · 10-07-2012, 12:29 PM

The McCarty just comes off...like a pickguard. There is no cost in doing something as simple as that. Nothing is routed into the top. A replacement pickguard is about $50. Why is it worth more without the McCarty? The last Montana L-7C sold for under $2800 without a McCarty. That's with a Cedar Creek case with purple plush interior.

**zizala** · 10-07-2012, 01:42 PM

Lurking McCarty L-7 player here.....

First of all.....I'd love to find me a nice L-4c.
But I'm not ready yet and I have a '49 L-7c thats so nice thats its probably more of a want than a need.

I play my L-7c and L-7's with McCarty pickguard/pickups.....and love the sound.

Add yes.....they are completely interchangeable with the original acoustic pickguard. The only real fussing has to do with getting the McCarty set up with the side bracket orientation and in proper position under the strings. I also use copper shielding tape underneath to combat static and ground the unit by running a wire to the tailpiece using a spade connector to allow easy pickguard maintenance and removal. I would say they add value.
I've commonly seen good examples sell in the $250-$500 range.
However I've never bought one that didn't need lots of tweaking to set up.

The pickups are lower output slender single coils, not much resemblance in performance to P-90's to my ears, but we're also talking floating pickups on acoustic archtops. They're very responsive to the acoustic quality of the L-7's and L-5's of the era. L-4c's too I'm sure. I can get plenty of "string" in my tone, but can also find a thicker full bodied sound with these depending on amp, amp settings and EQ.

Old ones usually need some work to make them usable.....often the pickguard has warped and needs straightening, and the minimalist pots need cleaning, disassembly or replacement. They're good enough for me when they're working, but most of the time I've got them wide open.

Here's my '45 L-7 set up with an earlier McCarty....

...and a 16" '61 Guild CE-100 with my own Guild styled version of the pickguard with a pickup removed from a wreck. its not an L-4c, but a good, responsive, well made instrument just the same.
I've since added volume and tone knobs just to see if I could and they work well, but probably would not bother if I were to do it again.

Forgive me as I might have posted this stuff before....it happens.....

ziz

**Dennis D** · 10-07-2012, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

The McCarty just comes off...like a pickguard. There is no cost in doing something as simple as that. Nothing is routed into the top. A replacement pickguard is about $50. Why is it worth more without the McCarty? The last Montana L-7C sold for under $2800 without a McCarty. .

Like I said, just my opinion. The McCarty may just come off, but I beg to differ that any capable luthier is going to those mod's for no charge.
As far as McCarty playability - aren't they usually mounted closer to the strings, and therefore allow less pick room ?

**Jabberwocky** · 10-07-2012, 02:05 PM

You do not require a luthier to remove a McCarty pickguard/pickup. If you can change your own strings, you can remove the McCarty and replace it with a standard pickguard. Still don't understand why the L-7C would be worth more without the McCarty than with it?

OK, maybe some people pay a luthier to change the strings and tune the guitar for them. In that case, a McCarty might become a liability.

**zizala** · 10-07-2012, 02:58 PM

If theres enough space between the strings and the top on a given guitar, there's really no problem with pick room, if the pickguard is straight and set up well.

As I said.....these things are made of old nitro and with the passing of time have often warped from deterioration and shrinkage. It requires some patience to get them right, but if you like the sound and don't mind the look its well worth the trouble.

**Dennis D** · 10-08-2012, 11:25 AM

Thanks for posting those pictures. In two days, I have now seen more McCarty pickups on instruments than I've seen in forty years.
I didn't mean to knock anyone's gear, honestly.
I just never saw them around much, and in forty plus years of watching jazz guitar players, I have never seen one on a gig - ever. Back in the day I had only seen one available for sale at a store. And the only pro I ever heard of or saw using one was Grant Green.
One Gibson site I found said the McC's were intended to replace the Charlie Christian, but try as they might, Gibson couldn't stop the C/C orders from coming in. Again, my opinion, but I'd have any of these guitars with a C/C in a heartbeat, even though they're just one solid polepiece. The C/C's just have a better look,feel and vibe.
Again, just my opinion, and enjoy yer stuff in good health!
Dennis

**Eddie Lang** · 10-08-2012, 12:10 PM

The CC pickup is certainly one of the coolest for sure. I would love to get an old ES-150 with one some day.

That being said, I seriously doubt that the "McCarty" unit was intended to replace it. The CC pickup was phased out as early as mid-1940 and replaced by a couple different pickups with adjustable pole pieces. One was the ancestor of the P-90 and the other one was known as the "long diagonal pickup", later replaced by the "shorter diagonal pickup". The P-90 was on the market by 1946 and the McCarty unit was only developed and presented in 1948, its patent was applied for in November 1948 and secured in September 1951.

The CC is inset in the top of the guitar and it has a huge magnet that requires mounting to the underside of the top as well. Not great for acoustic tone as this prevents the top from vibrating freely. The McCarty unit on the other hand is floating and allowed "electrifying" a guitar without loosing acoustic tone. Also, a few months before the 1948 NAMM convention, Gibson had no new ES model to present but they wanted to increase rapidly the number of Gibson electric guitars on the market. The unit allowed that at low cost and most (Gibson) acoustic archtop guitars could be fitted with the attachment pretty easily.

**2bornot2bop** · 10-08-2012, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by zizala

Lurking McCarty L-7 player here.....

First of all.....I'd love to find me a nice L-4c.
But I'm not ready yet and I have a '49 L-7c thats so nice thats its probably more of a want than a need.

I play my L-7c and L-7's with McCarty pickguard/pickups.....and love the sound.

Add yes.....they are completely interchangeable with the original acoustic pickguard. The only real fussing has to do with getting the McCarty set up with the side bracket orientation and in proper position under the strings. I also use copper shielding tape underneath to combat static and ground the unit by running a wire to the tailpiece using a spade connector to allow easy pickguard maintenance and removal. I would say they add value.
I've commonly seen good examples sell in the $250-$500 range.
However I've never bought one that didn't need lots of tweaking to set up.

The pickups are lower output slender single coils, not much resemblance in performance to P-90's to my ears, but we're also talking floating pickups on acoustic archtops. They're very responsive to the acoustic quality of the L-7's and L-5's of the era. L-4c's too I'm sure. I can get plenty of "string" in my tone, but can also find a thicker full bodied sound with these depending on amp, amp settings and EQ.

Old ones usually need some work to make them usable.....often the pickguard has warped and needs straightening, and the minimalist pots need cleaning, disassembly or replacement. They're good enough for me when they're working, but most of the time I've got them wide open.

Here's my '45 L-7 set up with an earlier McCarty....

...and a 16" '61 Guild CE-100 with my own Guild styled version of the pickguard with a pickup removed from a wreck. its not an L-4c, but a good, responsive, well made instrument just the same.
I've since added volume and tone knobs just to see if I could and they work well, but probably would not bother if I were to do it again.

Forgive me as I might have posted this stuff before....it happens.....

ziz

big GUILD fan here...hot lookin' CE100!

**Jabberwocky** · 10-08-2012, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by Eddie Lang

The CC pickup is certainly one of the coolest for sure. I would love to get an old ES-150 with one some day.

That being said, I seriously doubt that the "McCarty" unit was intended to replace it. The CC pickup was phased out as early as mid-1940 and replaced by a couple different pickups with adjustable pole pieces. One was the ancestor of the P-90 and the other one was known as the "long diagonal pickup", later replaced by the "shorter diagonal pickup". The P-90 was on the market by 1946 and the McCarty unit was only developed and presented in 1948, its patent was applied for in November 1948 and secured in September 1951.

The CC is inset in the top of the guitar and it has a huge magnet that requires mounting to the underside of the top as well. Not great for acoustic tone as this prevents the top from vibrating freely. The McCarty unit on the other hand is floating and allowed "electrifying" a guitar without loosing acoustic tone. Also, a few months before the 1948 NAMM convention, Gibson had no new ES model to present but they wanted to increase rapidly the number of Gibson electric guitars on the market. The unit allowed that at low cost and most (Gibson) acoustic archtop guitars could be fitted with the attachment pretty easily.

Wow, Eddie. I defer to your knowledge. No sarcasm intended. I really do.

**Jabberwocky** · 10-08-2012, 12:30 PM

Odds are, the McCarty on that 2008 Montana L-7C is a modern Lollar re-creation. Maybe I'll ask Joe V.......

**Dennis D** · 10-08-2012, 01:04 PM

The ad said 'Vintage McCarty, professionally installed', so I'm guessing it's not a Lollar.
And just for kicks, ask Joe what he'd charge to remove the McCarty and / or how much it'd change ( hopefully reduce ) the asking price. And if that last Montana build went for $2800 -- just as clean - -someone got a deal, and good for them.

**Eddie Lang** · 10-08-2012, 01:38 PM

Hi Dennis. I admit, I am a geek, a nerd or whatever and I am only too happy to share what I have learned from exchanges with others who are just as passionate as me on the subject (and usually more knowledgeable, but I am working on it

), and also from books and other reliable sources during my research.

As for the McCarty on that recent L-7C at Archtop.com, again, removing the unit only requires to unscrew the pickguard bracket -- it's just as easy as removing any floating pickguard and it only takes a few seconds, nothing more involved -- UNLESS this one has been modified to have the wires running inside the guitar to be plugged in at the end pin jack or something. Normally, it is not done that way since one connects the cord to the input jack directly underneath the guard.

**Dennis D** · 10-08-2012, 01:57 PM

Hi Eddie
Please keep sharing your info. Are you kidding, it's always a treat to read / listen to someone who knows what he's talking about, and you sure do !
My point is this may be a good opportunity to see what the market is for these vintage McCartys, my opinion being it's nowhere near $300-500. dollars, as someone had posted.
Again, just my opinion.
Thx again.
Dennis

**Eddie Lang** · 10-08-2012, 02:13 PM

Your point is a good one, Dennis. It could be interesting to see what Joe has to say indeed. As for the $300-500 value on a McCarty unit itself -- not talking about the one on the L-7C specifically -- unfortunately that is the price they go for on eBay and in certain shops. Certainly not below that if they are in good working condition. At least, that is what the current market says... Who knows what tomorrow may bring.

EDIT to add: if one orders a McCarty type unit from Lollar Pickups, they start at $450 for the single pickup model.

**Dennis D** · 10-08-2012, 02:30 PM

Wow, Eddie, - -they go for that much ?

I got close to having a blonde archtop built recently, but decided against it. I was trying to duplicate the 'found' Charlie Christian -refinished natural 350 ( ?? ). Of course, I started looking for a vintage CC P/U, but ruled that out once I found the Lollar C/C humbucker model. The Lollars are easier to install, the sound is close, if not better, and they're less money. A no brainer.

Thanks again Eddie. I appreciate your info.
Dennis

**bigdaddyguitar** · 10-08-2012, 06:08 PM

Most people don't realize the four variants designed for cutaways ( single / double pickups with nickle / gold parts ) remained cataloged until 1971 . The four variants designed for non-cutaway guitar were discontinued in 1959. During the 50s and 60s you could custom order a Super 400 ,Super 300,L-5 , L-12 , etc. with the " McCarty finger rest pickup ".

**Philco** · 10-09-2012, 06:53 AM

Originally Posted by GuyBoden

This is a picture taken today, 9th Oct, of My 1949 L4C, which clearly shows the fret markers.

I asked Jason Lollar to make a McCarty pickup in 2009 because he was interested in them, it is the first one he produced/sold.

VERY nice indeed.
I'm thinking that he could probably make a guard with the controls underneath.
Depending how hard those pots are to get.