flatwound vs roundwound strings - what did the greats use?

[ruger9]

Most flat vs round string threads are looking for comparisons & opinions. This one isn't... but I do wonder, since flatwounds only came into being in 1940 (from the info I could find), but archtops had been around quite a bit earlier, does anyone know what kind of strings the "greats" of the past used?

Charlie Christian
Oscar Moore
Eldon Shamblin
-insert your favorite great here-

[es34569]

If I could add Howard Roberts to your list, I definitely remember hearing his strings chirping as he played several fast chord progressions on one of my albums. I cannot remember which album it was on and I no longer have a record player (bummer) to check it out. Maybe Jack Zucker might know for sure, as he studied with him (You Tube).
Chuck

[rpguitar]

The Gibson ES-150 was introduced in December of 1936, so anything played before that would have been with roundwound bronze strings. Flats are horrible on an acoustic, and were meant to eliminate string squeak (which I can only assume was made worse with amplified instruments).

As for individual players on electric archtops after that, I can't add much to the conversation. I'm sure there was plenty of personal taste involved, and that not everyone used flats on their electric guitars.

[jorgemg1984]

I know most greats of today use rounds: Kurt Rosenwinkel, Lage Lund, Gilad Hekselman, Jonathan Kreisber, Mike Moreno, Peter Bernstein, John Scofield, Ben Monder... I think Metheny has changed between both during the years.

[rpguitar]

It is pretty hard to find out the definitive answer to this question. It's as if nobody was documenting such a trivial thing. Who knew we'd all obsess over such stuff?

Here's a photo of Gibson Mona-Steel strings from the 1940s. The box says (on the side) "with plain second." So that tells you they were probably round wound steel strings, and that the B strings was often wound. I've heard that too when Eddie Lang's gear is discussed. Really heavy strings with a wound second...

[rpguitar]

And these, made with "Mylatone Metal" (??)

[ruger9]

It is pretty hard to find out the definitive answer to this question. It's as if nobody was documenting such a trivial thing. Who knew we'd all obsess over such stuff?

Yeah I'm sure alot of the old guard would laugh at today's players... debating minutiae. I was just curious, mostly about the invention of flats, and when/why.

[Doctor Jeff]

Also wondering what composition they were--I assume pure nickel for the 40's and 50's, then steel in the 60's? I haven't found anything specific on that.

[monkmiles]

Great question. I'd like to know what type of string Joe Pass used.

I have flats on my archtop, half wounds on my semi hollowbody, and round wound on my solidbody.

[Tom Karol]

Attila Zoller used .013 - .056 flats - he designed them for LaBella.
I use rounds - 12's on my archtop, and 11's on my Semi-Hollow and on my Tele.

[kawa]

Each L-5 CES comes strung with Gibson L-5 Electric .012 strings in a Custom Shop case with a certificate of authenticity – testimony to the origin of an instrument that’s truly world class.

http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Elec.../Features.aspx

"012 - .052, Genuine Gibson Strings" means SEG-900M.
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Elec...175/Specs.aspx

Standard 175 ; "ships with Gibson Brite Wire .010 strings"
http://www2.gibson.com/Products/Elec.../Features.aspx

[Eddie Lang]

Last winter, I purchased a 1953 Gibson L-4C (acoustic). Among the goodies in the original case, there was a box of Mapes Strings ("Made only by The Mapes Piano String Co - 767 East 133rd Street, New York 54, N.Y.").







In the box, there was a small sanding cloth with the following instructions:





I guess that polishing the round wound strings like that could make them anywhere between round to almost flat.

The first two strings are plain and the remaining four are bronze wound. I used my caliper to measure the strings as follow: .013 - .016 - .027 - .036 - .048 - .057.

[docbop]

There's a thread over on another site in response to typically what strings does <fill in blank> use. It don't matter. In a Jim Hall interview I saw recently he's like why do people ask what strings I use?

Too me every guitar, pick, player, style, setup, amp, and so on are different so if <fill in the blank> uses XYZ doesn't mean you'll get that sound. Plus big names get endorsements and will use what they are given. Some will endorse X and still put Y on their guitar because they like the feel. You like a players sound make some common sense changes to your setup and you'll eventually get to the sound you want.

I played bass for a long time and from that become very aware of where and how you strike the string you can change your tone even within a song. A lot of your sound is in your hands.

[yebdox]

I think it's an interesting and valid subject, because small changes, like in string gauges, picks, picking angle, hand and pick placement, all can make a difference in tone... when I hear that high transient with the warm tones below that Wes achieves with his thumb and the tone (supposedly) rolled down, it's not the same thing I can get with a heavier pick (Pro-Plec) and heavy gauge strings. Try it, there's something different there, more spice.

Or, try getting that upper mid tone that Peter Bernstein gets, while remaining warm, with that burbling hollowness... probably helps to have a solid top, but heavy gauge (13 and up) strings seem to help, along with stronger finger pressure on the frets and a rounded heavier gauge pick with medium attack, right over the neck pickup.

Or, try listening to the difference between a heavier pick (Dunlop Ultex 1.14 or Pro-Plec) and a medium gauge pick with a slightly sharper point (Dunlop Ultex .73) on heavier gauge strings (12 or 13 and above) - the difference between a warm tone, and the snap that Benson always seems to get. Same strings, same amp, same tone controls, but wonderfully different tones that inspire one to play differently. It's all just colors, many of which I knew nothing about until the last few years. Just don't obsess!

[ruger9]

There's a thread over on another site in response to typically what strings does <fill in blank> use. It don't matter. In a Jim Hall interview I saw recently he's like why do people ask what strings I use?

.

You're right- it don't matter. None of it does. We should just close down all the gear talk forums on the internet. And gear makers should stop endorsing artists and doing any sort of advertising. Cause it don't matter. Just build the gear, put it on the music store floors, and see if it sells. Because really, gear doesn't matter.

[jorgemg1984]

I have to say this: what a moron one has to be to ask that to Jim Hall? I mean you have the chance to talk to Jim Hall, a living legend of the instrument / genre, and that's what you ask him? Not "what was it like to play with bill evans?"? Really?

PS - I am a big endorser of the "gear does matter" side.

[docbop]

You're right- it don't matter. None of it does. We should just close down all the gear talk forums on the internet. And gear makers should stop endorsing artists and doing any sort of advertising. Cause it don't matter. Just build the gear, put it on the music store floors, and see if it sells. Because really, gear doesn't matter.

Works for me.

Now good gig shoes are important because if your feet hurt they can distract you from that F# aug-mished 9th in the next bar.

[ruger9]

Works for me.

Now good gig shoes are important because if your feet hurt they can distract you from that F# aug-mished 9th in the next bar.

"aug-mished"? That's a new one...how do you play one of those?

[hot ford coupe]

"aug-mished"? That's a new one...how do you play one of those?

With flat wound strings

[Jabberwocky]

Last winter, I purchased a 1953 Gibson L-4C (acoustic). Among the goodies in the original case, there was a box of Mapes Strings ("Made only by The Mapes Piano String Co - 767 East 133rd Street, New York 54, N.Y.").







In the box, there was a small sanding cloth with the following instructions:





I guess that polishing the round wound strings like that could make them anywhere between round to almost flat.

The first two strings are plain and the remaining four are bronze wound. I used my caliper to measure the strings as follow: .013 - .016 - .027 - .036 - .048 - .057.

Thanks for that tidbit, Eddie. I like seeing all these bits from the past. Mapes Piano String Co. made all those strings for the New York Steinway & Sons, didn't they? In fact, they still do. I wonder how many of the current strings from the different labels are actually re-packaged Mapes piano strings?

[ruger9]

Eddie, you gonna' USE those strings? Or just keep 'em in the case as "historic nostalgia"?

FWIW, LOVE the idea of standard strings sets coming with a couple extras.

[Eddie Lang]

Ruger, strickly memorabilia. Around 60 years of oxygen has had some effect on the strings and even if they were still like new, I would just keep them...

[BixLives!]

An OLD person who worked in the industry is what we need.
I am OLD as dirt, but I am a player. I'll give it a try.

AS a kid, Black Diamond were a mainstay, Gibson (were a tad more expensive, but good), Labella, D'Angelicos came around c. 1970, and by 1978 I had switched to D' Addario for most instruments —until this day. D' Addario .10s or 11s for my Tele and Strat, Mediums or light bronze for my flat-tops, and recently I switched to coated strings. I am too old to change strings every week! The new coatings have gotten fairly good, but uncoated still sound better. If you are recording, use uncoated strings. I use light flats for my Jazz boxes. Flats last a lot longer. Sometimes I used them on my Fenders, but they lack brightness, —essential for commercial pop music. I play Jazz on arch-tops. I think blues and country sound better on flat tops and electrics. My Tele is an Esquire (unusually light —5 lbs) and I put a Johnny Smith PUP at the neck. (mini humbucker). It is wondrous.

I remember many different types of round wounds, —e.g. the winding wire was nickel for any guitar with a pickup (magnetic coil type). The shape of the windings varied. They could be perfectly round or a bit oval (i.e., flattened out). I found that the flattened out round wound were a tad less bright.

The Beatles did not have a guitar tech as they did NOT exist. The Beatles did NOT replace full sets. They replaced individual strings as they broke, —just like everyone else.

BTW; The Gibson J-160s, remains THE only Gibson flat-top with a laminate top. They sound a tad dead if recorded as an acoustic. They were made with a conventional PUP for stage work. They were the first decent stage acoustic intended for amplification. One should use heavier NICKEL rounds-wounds on the J-160.

Back in the late 1970s and 80s, when I was playing in a successful band, I replaced my sets once every two weeks on ALL guitars. Any instrument that might be used for a recording session, I would re-string the night before; making sure to stretch the strings a bit to stabalise them.

Acoustics got round bronze windings. "80/20",—specified alloy ratios appeared c. 1974. Blimey, in "my day", all we cared about was that the string package listed the gauge. We also were keen NOT to be eaten by a pterodactyl.

[BixLives!]

Eddie, it's been a long time between beers! Are you still playing that spiffy 1928 - L5 with the strings that are thicker than the cables on the 59th Street Bridge?
(There is NOTHING groovy about that bridge!)