Jazz Guitar Bridges

**.02$** · 06-09-2012, 12:07 AM

Hi, just signed up after following the forum for a while. Wednesday I received a custom 575 and have a couple of questions concerning archtop bridges.

Is there a difference between bridges with two feet compaired to the kind with a base that fully contacts the top? (carved spruce)

Also, the height from base the the top of the saddle is about an inch with a lot of post showing between bridge and saddle.

Would this type of bridge drive the top more or would you need more info like bracing and kind of pickups?

Thanks for your response!

**PTChristopher** · 06-09-2012, 12:36 AM

>>> Is there a difference between bridges with two feet compaired to the kind with a base that fully contacts the top?

I very much doubt that you would hear a difference. Or at least I have never noticed a systematic difference based on the contact pattern (full vs. two big feet).

>>> Also, the height from base the the top of the saddle is about an inch with a lot of post showing between bridge and saddle.

The total bridge height, along with the string break angle over the bridge vary widely from one guitar design to another. Aesthetically, having lots of post showing is a little unfashionable. It is the 'argyle socks' of archtop bridges. In practice it works just fine.

It is easy enough to make a new base and bridge to better fit the situation - more height to the wooden components and less metal post. But you will probably only notice a sound difference if the total assembly had significantly more mass. In my opinion you would very likely not notice any difference due to less "free-post" distance, or due to the contact pattern of a single base vs. a two-footed beast.

All of this assumes a competent fit of the base to the top.

>>> Would this type of bridge drive the top more or would you need more info like bracing and kind of pickups?

In my opinion (and a little Isaac Newton thrown in), a more massive bridge can affect the extent to which the strings drive the top. And, in principle anyway, a very responsive acoustic top with no PU bolted onto it will likely react more to a given change in bridge mass.

Chris

**Archtop 13** · 06-09-2012, 06:07 AM

Bridge material will give you more difference in sound than the features you have mentioned. The design of the archtop requires that the posts of the bridge rest over the bracing. Width of the bridge base shouldn't be too narrow, length will not change things too much. Mostly because, once you get past the bracing the length has a very diminishing effect. The width of the base, however, is in full contact of the bracing. Make sure to fit the base before stringing it or you can damage the top. The forces on the bridge can cause the uneven base to dig in on the high spots. So, to answer your other Q... Full length base or two feet doesn't matter too much, so long as the string pressure through the posts are resting over the bracing.

**kris** · 06-09-2012, 07:03 AM

gigs and concerts are good expierence...
in home sounds eveything different.

**oldane** · 06-09-2012, 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by kris

gigs and concerts are good expierence...
in home sounds eveything different.

Yes - and not only different. Many of the subtle differencies we hear - and consider important - in the quietness of our living room will be completely "drowned" by the sounds of other instruments, room noises etc. in a band setting.

**PTChristopher** · 06-09-2012, 08:00 AM

>>> Many of the subtle differencies we hear - and consider important - in the quietness of our living room will be completely "drowned" by the sounds of other instruments, room noises etc. in a band setting.

100% agreed. I'd also add in:

- the subtleties we think we hear because it makes us think we are special.

and

- the subtleties we absolutely know must be there because we got personal "boutique" attention when buying our absolutely normal moderately wound PAFs.

All in my opinion. Many others feel very differently.

Chris

**rpguitar** · 06-09-2012, 09:28 AM

Oh my goodness, Chris, is that ever true! Of course it won't stop me from seeking opportunities to feel special. But thanks for pointing it out nonetheless.

**PTChristopher** · 06-09-2012, 09:44 AM

Hi Roger,

It's just my observation/opinion.

And yeah, definitely not intended to stop anyone from seeking whatever they find most enjoyable about their guitar.

I can not count how many times a guy would walk in wanting new pickups or tuners - just the right combo of modest cost (but enough for a sense of "commitment") and clear visual/tactile impact. But the guitar could really use a new nut, 7 or 8 new frets, and a serious setup to make it play incredibly well.

Same $$$, but one involves shiny new chrome or gold.

Chris

**.02$** · 06-09-2012, 10:23 AM

OK guys back on track. No crime in having two feet and lots of post showing. First off, the "stock" bridge has tons of set back on the B string and while the B is in tune, the intonation is sharp on the other five. Granted the shipping strings are round wounds (12?) with a wound G. Have some Ti 12 flats which I was planning to use but there are decisions.

Waste a set of Ti flats to confirm the current bridge will not intonate?
Order a new bridge with a material that better color coordinates and does not have the setback on the B and would have less post showing. On an inch high bridge how much post usually shows?

**kris** · 06-09-2012, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by oldane

Yes - and not only different. Many of the subtle differencies we hear - and consider important - in the quietness of our living room will be completely "drowned" by the sounds of other instruments, room noises etc. in a band setting.

+1

**oldane** · 06-09-2012, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

- the subtleties we think we hear because it makes us think we are special.

and

- the subtleties we absolutely know must be there because we got personal "boutique" attention when buying our absolutely normal moderately wound PAFs.

Chris

This morning, I just wrote this (about my Warmoth partscaster) in another thread:

"Well, it's not a tele. If anything it's a Strat. But it's not that either, it just has strat shape. Both the neck and the body is solid mahogany which is rather un-strattish. Then the PU - a Biltoft HCC - is unstrattish too. So it should sound quite unlike a Strat. Does it? No. When set up withe same strings, action, amp etc. and picked with the same pick, it sounds almost indistiguishable from my stock Strat Highway with stock PUs, ash body and maple fretboard. The guitar itself often means less to the sound than we may think. The setup and playing style is everything.

The writer says: "Nice camera you got there. I bet it takes wonderful pictures."
The photographer answers: "Nice typewriter you got there. I bet it writes great novels."

- you get the idea."

**PTChristopher** · 06-09-2012, 01:50 PM

>>> The writer says: "Nice camera you got there. I bet it takes wonderful pictures."
>>> The photographer answers: "Nice typewriter you got there. I bet it writes great novels."

Oooooh. I just bought this amazing underwear, I bet ...

*****************

>>> OK guys back on track.

Who's off track?

>>>No crime in having two feet and lots of post showing.

Yep. Well maybe in Texas it is a capital crime, but otherwise, no problem.

>>>First off, the "stock" bridge has tons of set back on the B string and while the B is in tune, the intonation is sharp on the other five.

Yep. You really need remarkably little "set-back" on the B (vs. a line from E to E) for most .012 and heavier sets with a wound G.

>>> Granted the shipping strings are round wounds (12?) with a wound G. Have some Ti 12 flats which I was planning to use but there are decisions.

If they are JS-112 then you will need VERY little set back on the B. I end up with about 1.5 mm at most with JS-112 strings. (This is all going with your description of "set back", which is a perfectly workable way to look at it.)

>>> Waste a set of Ti flats to confirm the current bridge will not intonate?

I would not bother, but that is just me.

>>> Order a new bridge with a material that better color coordinates and does not have the setback on the B and would have less post showing.

I would make a new bridge.

>>> On an inch high bridge how much post usually shows?

This varies all over the place based on the height of the base and the bridge as well as the overall set height.

But in general, I always want a good 3/64" to 1/16" (1.0 to 1.5mm) minimum showing so I have room for adjustments if there are any significant seasonal changes to the guitar. The right combination of body movement and truss rod adjustment can require a surprising amount of bridge adjustment in some cases.

On the high end, I'd aim for no more than about 5mm. More is rarely any sort of problem, but may as well look like everyone nows what they are doing in the fashion department.

All in my opinion.

Chris

**jazzbow** · 06-09-2012, 02:07 PM

Talking about posts showing I remember there was a poster on this forum (a long way back) touting this idea for wooden washers?!? on the posts to take up the exposed post and therefore promoting a bridge-wooden washer-bridge base-guitar top contact.
Does any one remember this or am I nuts?

**PTChristopher** · 06-09-2012, 02:20 PM

I would think there must be a village in the UK called:

Bridge-wooden washer-bridge base-guitar in the Marsh.

Maybe in the New Forest of something.

**oldane** · 06-09-2012, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by jazzbow

Talking about posts showing I remember there was a poster on this forum (a long way back) touting this idea for wooden washers?!? on the posts to take up the exposed post and therefore promoting a bridge-wooden washer-bridge base-guitar top contact.
Does any one remember this or am I nuts?

I remember it vaguely too - but of course that doesn't rule out that you can still be nuts.

Whatever, I doubt it's worth the trouble to make such washers - and the lack of adjustment opportunity is inconvenient.

Bob Bendetto advocated one-piece bridges with cut outs (not unlike violin bridges) in his book from the beginning of the 1990s though he used adjustable bridges on his guitars due to customer demand. In more recent years, he actually did a side by side comparison between a one piece bridge and a traditional one with metal posts on the same guitar. He couldn't hear any sigficant difference in sound and as a consequence revised his point of view.

**oldane** · 06-09-2012, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

On the high end, I'd aim for no more than about 5mm. More is rarely any sort of problem, but may as well look like everyone nows what they are doing in the fashion department.

Chris

At the moment I actually have a bridge saddle riding pretty high above the base on my Triggs. Due to the bigger body, the neck is set higher to ensure a good break angle at the bridge. The original saddle was pretty tall but was straight/slanted and the B string played sharp. I bought a Sadowsky compensated bridge which wasn't as tall and the adjustment wheels had to go up high to set my preferred high action on this guitar. It does look a bit odd, and I planned to make a new and taller compensated saddle for it, but haven't got around to doing it yet. However, it sounds excellent as it is, so I may never do it.

**Tom Karol** · 06-09-2012, 04:52 PM

Sorry, .02$, can't resist:
Listener to Chet Atkins - "Your guitar sounds great!"
Chet (puts guitar back in case) - "How does it sound now?"

**.02$** · 06-09-2012, 06:23 PM

So this is where the wise a$$ gets his due?

**PTChristopher** · 06-09-2012, 06:32 PM

Beautiful guitar.

That is one goofy bridge. Must replace in my opinion.

Chris

**Archtop 13** · 06-09-2012, 07:33 PM

That's one beautiful guitar. Love the extreme point on the neck extension.

**Tom Karol** · 06-09-2012, 07:44 PM

Gorgeous guitar!

Sadowsky sells intonated bridge saddles. I've heard they work well but have no first hand experience with them. You might want to check them out.

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**Archtop 13** · 06-09-2012, 08:03 PM

The Sadowski's are cool, I've seen the website before. The problem ith anything intonated is that there is still no guarantee that it will intonate perfectly. It may get you closer.

**.02$** · 06-09-2012, 08:05 PM

Originally Posted by Tom Karol

Gorgeous guitar!

Sadowsky sells intonated bridge saddles. I've heard they work well but have no first hand experience with them. You might want to check them out.

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Yes Tom:

I came across that bridge as well as three other custom bridge venders. It is under consideration. Thanks!

**jazzbow** · 06-10-2012, 08:10 AM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher

I would think there must be a village in the UK called:

Bridge-wooden washer-bridge base-guitar in the Marsh.

Maybe in the New Forest of something.

Yes, it's from the Norse 'Brid-woden Base.'

A strange town where every second terraced house out of six is built slightly back from the main street!

**PTChristopher** · 06-10-2012, 01:22 PM

>>> it's from the Norse 'Brid-woden Base.'

See, I knew it was something like that.

>>> second terraced house out of six is built slightly back

So plain G's sound awful there. No wonder Rory Gallagher never caught on there.

Oldane mentioned Benedetto and the idea of continuous wood (OK, that did not come out right).

As much as you can admire Benedetto for his hands-on designing and building, I think his willingness to actually look into (and test) concepts - AND adapt as needed based on results, is way beyond anyone else. Amazing. A long career and seemingly never stuck in a rut.

Chris