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Still a newbie here... recent thread on TI strings got me thinking... anybody here NOT use a wound 3rd? Coming from a rock/blues background, bending is part of my style. Not saying I want to be bending strings all over the place in traditional jazz stuff, but I am leaning more towards the western swing side of things...
Just wondering if anybody else uses a PLAIN 3rd for bending purposes? (Or did you just learn to bend the wound 3rd?)
[I of course have wound 3rds on my acoustics, and CAN bend them, but it ain't easy!]
Related: are flatwounds any easier/harder to bend than roundwounds (with regards to the wound 3rd)?
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05-27-2012 05:34 PM
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In my experience, the flatwounds are easier to bend.
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My own experience with bending wound G-strings translates into breaking wound G strings. Even more so with flatwounds, which I have found to be very brittle at the ball end. So I don't use them for my bendy noisemaking.
For the guitars that I use when bending more than a semitone, I use unwound heavy G-strings - .18 on the light side (with .11 - .52 sets), .21 on the heavier side. Dean Markley sells .11 - .52 sets that come with an unwound .18 as well as a wound .20.
Heavier sets like .12-.52 or .13-.54 typically come with wound .26 strings. I bought a pile of unwound .21/.22/.23 strings to substitute into those sets when I feel brave.
Western swing, eh?
Big Ball's in Cowtown!Last edited by Hammertone; 05-27-2012 at 07:31 PM.
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Yeah man... "cowboy jazz".... those guys (guitar players) were every bit jazz players. Despite the presence of banjos and fiddles
Originally Posted by Hammertone
Actually, I'm heading in a unique direction... I'm calling it "western swing-a-tonk-a-billy" sort of joking. Everything from Asleep at the Wheel, to Redd Volkeart, to Wayne Hancock, to Brian Setzer (total jazz chops), to Big Sandy and the Fly-Rite Boys... but for the purposes of this forum, I guessed just plain "western swing" would be best understood.
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Wound G's have a thinner core than a solid string so actually easier to bend. That is also why they tend to break easier if you start bending them.
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Can't really speak to flatwounds, but I only string up with wound 3rds. I use a lighter gauge (12's) and bend all the time.
Tuned E-standard.
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It depends on the guitar/what I play. I like using Elixir 13s on my Eastman (I buy the 7 string sets then throw away the top E), so that has a wound 3rd, as does the strings on my acoustic. But on my JJ solidbody I use 10s, so no wound third.
It just really depends on the kind of music I play on the guitar, I guess you could get a cool sound with a plain third, I've always found plain thirds much easier to play, but they don't sound the same.
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Unwound G string is a choice that works for many, depending on individual taste, style, plectrum, etc. I use an unwound G on all my guitars, including my dreadnaught. I sound like myself.
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I come from a Blues background as well and I prefer a wound third for all my playing now. I don't do as many bends as I used to -- sometimes you can't help but noodle around with some favorite Blues licks from the past -- but using the TI flat wounds, I haven't yet broken a third yet.
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Not on acoustic strings! Certainly not easier to bend than a plain G, in my experience. Originally Posted by docbop
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[Docbop]>>> Wound G's have a thinner core than a solid string so actually easier to bend. That is also why they tend to break easier if you start bending them.
Wow Doc-B.
If I can suggest a somewhat different take on this?
1. - Why are there wound guitar strings?
It is a looooong answer. But in a nutshell we need wound strings because plain strings lack flexibility, particularly in larger gauges. This has NOTHING at all to do with bending. It has everything to do with inharmonicity and the mix of transient and standing wave harmonics that sound pleasing to us.
2. - Why are there plain strings?
a. They are cheaper.
b. At small enough gauges the lack of core strength of a wound string becomes a problem.
c. At small enough gauges harmonic content and inharmonicity is not a practical problem in a plain string.
3. Why is the G plain sometimes and wound sometimes?
Well on guitars it just happens that the factors discussed above sort of cross over at the frequency, tension, and harmonic content of the G string. There are exceptions where a wound B (or even high E) are used. But those are exceptional cases and beyond my quickie post.
And back to:
>>> Wound G's have a thinner core than a solid string
Yep.
>>> Wound G's have a thinner core than a solid string so actually easier to bend.
No. In both ways one may use "easier" this is not the case.
You need to move a wound string MUCH farther to get a similar pitch change. The reason for this is probably too obvious to slog through here.
In effect, a wound G is much harder to move far enough to get a given pitch change vs. a plain G.
>>> [Wound G strings] tend to break easier if you start bending them.
Yep. For two reasons, which are also in the 'pretty obvious' department.
All partly in my opinion, I guess. But mostly this is [many] centuries old basic physics that exists independent of our opinion or understanding.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 05-27-2012 at 09:11 PM. Reason: shortened the post some
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Inharmonicity is a general-use word (not that it comes up at the nail salon often), but I mean it as it applies to string harmonic errors due to STIFFNESS IN THE STRING.
Last edited by PTChristopher; 05-27-2012 at 09:33 PM.
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned one of the reasons so many jazz players use a wound G. The solid wood bridges on many jazz guitars have no intonation adjustments are are compensated for a wound G.
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Wow. I thought it was a simple question... lol
I always thought the wound G was indeed wound for 2 reasons:
1) the first guitars were acoustic, therefore the strings had to generate more energy, therefore had to be bigger, therefore wound G (I'm talking modern guitars here, ever since guitar strings were wound, not lutes from the middle ages)
2) even after plain G's became popular due to the electrification of guitar thru pickups and amps, some tones still required the beefier wound G (acoustic/folk, archtop/swing, etc)
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Plain G strings came into play on electrics in the fifties - players would take the 1-5th strings, move them over to the 2-6th slots and replace the first with a banjo string.
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A friend of mine used a plain g on his set of flat wound 13s. I don't know what gauge the string was but we used to joke that it was fencing wire. It sounded good but it was significantly louder that the other strings. He has since gone back to a wound g.
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As GodinFan said, plain G's came from the blues rockers in the 50's ans 60's trying to get easier bends, as Page explains in this video:
I switched to wound G's because the unbalanced sound when playing unplugged started driving me crazy.
Plain G's are always much louder, and sound dead or out of tune before the others.Last edited by RyanM; 05-28-2012 at 02:44 AM.
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I guess I shoulda skipped the longer opinion.
>>> plain G's came from the blues rockers in the 50's ans 60's trying to get easier bends,
My grandfather was slightly before the earliest beginnings of the blues/rock era as a pro, but we talked strings quite a bit when I was getting in to all of this.
Like the later use of distortion, feedback, crunch, etc., the plain G (and its bend-ability) seems to be a bit of a secondary accident.
As in the above video, the goal was just lighter strings. Which has three effects (vs. a simpler single effect, so brace yourself if needed).
- Lighter strings are easier to bend.
- Lighter strings change pitch to a greater extent for a given amount of bending.
- By accident (vs. intent), the banjo string shift resulted in a plain G.
And a plain G will change pitch more than a wound G for a given amount of bend for a long-since covered (wow, and single-simple) reason.
Guitardom is a funny place sometimes. Vibrating strings and sound are sort of complicated. It seems we love the complexity when it makes us the egocentric "measure of all things", so we belabor tiny differences between one PAF and another. But when our heads hurt we demand simplicity so that we can get "the answer".
Go figure.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 05-28-2012 at 09:43 AM.
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[Ryan M]>>> I switched to wound G's because the unbalanced sound when playing unplugged started driving me crazy.
>>>Plain G's are always much louder, and sound dead or out of tune before the others.
And with very simple reasons for the stuff you mention.
Some players have the opposite reaction to the same situation. To them a wound G (particularly in a light strung set) can sound like it has a strong whine or ring to it, so they go to a plain one.
Nice that we have so many options these days.
ChrisLast edited by PTChristopher; 05-28-2012 at 09:25 AM.
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At this point, my favorite strings are Thomastik Infeld Bebop strings (12) which have a plain G. I like how that feels, but of course I also entered this from a rock/blues background. I also like the occasional bend and hence find a wound g a bit limiting. Of course for straight ahead jazz it is not necessary to ever bend, but on guitars that I want to be versatile I can't have a wound g.
I actually never really liked the feel of a wound g and very often I find that it has a significant drop in volume and attach with it which needs to be compensated by adjusting the pickup (provided that's possible). Of course, the intonation issue is quite serious if the bridge can not be adjusted.
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Hiya Frank,
Funny enough, I use T-I Bebop 12 and add a wound G. To each his own of course.
>>> the intonation issue is quite serious if the bridge can not be adjusted.
I guess this also came up earlier. A new saddle is a pretty quick thing to make if needed. And plain G's really do need specific compensation (vs. a simple slanted saddle) even in heavier gauges.
In my opinion.
Chris
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Coming from a rock/blues background, and now getting into western swing and jump blues, I'm thinking the same thing... perhaps I'll have one guitar setup for more rockabilly/jump blues, and one for more western/swing... I already have a guitar for more of a rockabilly/jump blues thing (Gretsch) but am looking to get a deeper-bodied "jazzbox" to put flatwounds on, for more of a western/swing thing. Plus, more guitars is always better. Originally Posted by FrankLearns
Not looking to get into the bebop or "straight-forward" jazz, also not wanting to do only the 4-to-the-bar big band thing, I'm thinking my style won't really jive with not bending the G string, as I do it all the time. Guess I'll find out over time.
Sort of an interesting related string gauge story...
I used to play hair metal
that was my generation when I was learning. I had a Charvel "superstrat" with a locking floyd rose, etc. Played .009's on it. I recently refurbished that old axe, just for fun... just for once in awhile when the need to shred hits me. I put .009s on it. I couldn't play the thing! The were like rubber bands. It was like trying to play with kite string. So I put 10's on it, which was definitely better... but I generally go even higher on my other guitars... 11's on the 24-3/4" scales & 25" scales, and "thin/thick" (12's on the wounds, 10's on the plains) on my 25-1/2" scales.
Whenever I read Billy Gibbons plays with 8's I'm still in disbelief.Last edited by ruger9; 05-28-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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The way I see it, I still got two strings I can bend.
I hate plain G's, and I will never go back to them. The benefits in tone, intonation, and balance far outweigh my need to do some chuck berry isms...
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Well, I'd say it depends on the STYLE you're playing, of course. I mean, I would never use a plain G on my acoustics, and I could never use a wound G on my Charvel. Or my tele, for that matter. Different styles require different methods, which require different tools, I'd say. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
The tone "benefit", for example... in jazz a wound G would certainly be a benefit in tone, but on a tele playing chickin' pickin' country, the twanginess of a plain G is the "benefit" in tone there. As Chief Engineer Scott would say "the right tool for the right job."
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Of course...I'm lucky the only thing I want to play is jazz.
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