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We all like to talk about our gear right? Well, I guess it's because every guitarplayer has to walk a certain path before finding the right guitar and the right amplifier (and perhaps it's a never ending quest, just because it's fun...)
Anyway, I've tried an played a lot of great and even more expensive guitars, but recently I stumbled across an old Japanese Condor ES-175 copy. Since it has the open-book-headstock I figured it's probably from before the law-suit era, when Japanese builders decided it would be safer not to make exact copies anymore. So my estimation is it's early 70ies.
The electronics sucked and were very rusty (as was the tailpiece), the inlays are very poorly done and the overall condition was bad, but I recognized a vibrant tone, with an authentic 'ploc' to it. Turned out I could overtake the guitar for a good bottle of single malt whiskey, so I thought what the heck....
I replaced all the electronics with a Stewart MacDonalds Les Paul-kit, and I replaced the pickups with Golden Age Humbuckers from the same supplier. Then I ordered a new rosewood brigde, some new knobs and pointer-washers. All in all it cost me about 160 dollars to make the guitar come alive. And boy, did it come alive!! I am very, very surprised by it!! Maybe it's too much to say that i't comes close to it's Gibson equivalent, but secretly I think it covers about 95% of that guitar!!
The best thing is the neck: a very comfortable big piece of wood that might even be real mahagony wood. And also the Golden Age humbuckers are very very impressive. Although I find the output a little on the high side, all the tone is there! (to compensate the output I just lowered them down a bit more).
And now I do dare to say it: my bassplayer posesses a 1968 single humbucker ES-175 with the famous Gibson name on the headstock and my guitar does sound and play 99% as good as his....... (well, psychological factors may play here too).
So, if looking for a good jazzer, keep your eyes open for this cheapo Condor-copies and for pickup upgrades, do consider the Golden Age humbuckers from StewMac!
Just felt like sharing this on the forum!
greetz,
JasperLast edited by Little Jay; 10-16-2008 at 10:00 AM. Reason: spelling error
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10-16-2008 07:38 AM
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Congrats Jasper! Sounds (and looks) like a nice guitar. During the 7'0's I also owned a Japanese ES-175 copy, but cannot recall the brand. It was a really nice guitar, sounded and played great. Looking back, I wonder if it wasn't a Condor.
Good luck with your new axe!
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I think any guitar that is set up properly (ie, ballanced pick ups, intonation, good action (a fairly medium to low medium height, good pick up height) and working electronics will sound just fine then you should be able to get a good sound on any instrument that works properly
If you have an amp that has everything for the most part working then you should be able to sound just fine.
Tone is just as much if not more a product of good technique then it is what is stamped on the headstock of your axe. Granted, well made instruments can produce better sounds with wider frequencies and more dynamic response. But there are far to many examples and stories about great guitarists who have guitar's that are associated with them that have gone to jam sessions and picked up instruments they never played before through amps they don't own and still get "their sound,"
Someone for example like John Abercrombie or Bill Frisell switch guitars more often then the wind blows and they always sound like themselves. In today's world where these major artists tour all the time they always backline gear and end up on stage with amps they either never seen before or amps that barely work yet still sound like themselves. It is because they have a relationship with their instruments.
Obviously some qualities will always factor. Me, I'm playing a 335 and have been for the last 10 years. I just bought (enroute) a vintage Gibson thinlie guitar with P90 pickups... a different sound. However after playing guitars like this in demos I know that the fundamental qualities of my sound will still be there, what I like about my sound... how I play and articualate.
anyway this is a rant for some reason. I guess I know far to many guys who blow so much money on guitars over the years and finally for the 1st time ever I'll have 2 guitars worth playing consistently and I'm excited
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This is very true I think! For example, finally (after a lot of years) I discovered of myself that I can pretty much get a usefull tone and feel
Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon
on all the amps and reasonable guitars I play on jamsessions and rehearsels, while earlier if I didn't play on a certain amp with a certain type of guitar I wouldn't get "my" sound and couldn't play my things.....
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Little Jay,
For some people (or at certain age), buying a guitar appears to be an open brain surgery: one is always damaged in some way - either by bitter regrets and doubts, or by equally tormenting denial. In your case though, it seems that the surgery on the instrument proper is a better long term solution. Nice and compelling achievement.
Anyway, I digress. My thesis runs like this: moneywise, up to a certain point we call it spending, and after that we call it investment. I'd rather spend on guitars (amps, and assorted bells and whistles) and invest in learning (there is something wrong with the grammar in this sentence - "rather" followed by "and" - but I think my point is obvious).
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Right on, Jake. I had to learn the hard lesson the hard way. I was a guitar collector looking for the proverbial "Holy Grail". I played some of those great and famous instruments we all know and love including L5's, Super 400's and real D'Angelico's. Everytime I got another prize, I said "this has got to be the ONE." I played it and I then said to myself, "I must have gotten a bad one. It sounds like all the other crummy ones I have." I finally dumped a number of guitars and stuck with 2. Now, when I see certain brand names on a headstock, it tells me that the workmanship is good, the materials are higher grade, the guitar won't come apart on me or fail easily, the warrantee is good and the company stands behind it 100%. That's it. It doesn't mean that I'm going to put down my old guitar where I have crummy tone, pick up this new instrument and all of a sudden be able to play like a virtuoso. It just means it's a better made tool for the job. It's then up to me to be able to pull out all that the instrument is supposedly famous for. Les Paul himself said that the guitar is unlike other more traditional instruments like the violin or the clarinet. It comes with a good sound in it even if you just brush the strings taking it out of the box. He said listen to a kid learning the violin. The kid sounds like he's swinging a cat around his head and will sound like that for about 5 years until he learns and perfects his technique. And this doesn't change whether or not he plays on an Acme or a Stradivarius violin. Today, we seem to expect a guitar to do our job for us. Many players, especially younger "budding rock stars" don't take the time to learn correct technique, tone or even music in general. Shredding, speed and volume seems to be the goal. Then one goes out and buys the 1959 Les Paul ($100,000 !!), $12,000 worth of amps, and $2,000 worth of distortion effects so it sounds like a $2 guitar in a $3 amp. Save your money. Poke your speaker cone with a screw driver. I've heard some incredible things coming from guitarists that were playing supposedly inferior instruments.
Now I hope I haven't offended anyone here. There's a lot more to this than indicated. I know I've said some strong remarks but they weren't pointed at anyone on this site or against any equipment any of you out there use. I just have a strong love for the guitar and the music I love to play. thanks for letting me rant.Last edited by hot ford coupe; 10-16-2008 at 01:37 PM.
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no offense taken at all man, your post is right on.
when i was a senior in high school, i spent an entire summer's worth of money made throwing newspapers off the back of trucks at 3 in the morning and bought a really nice american made telecaster and a fender twin reverb--pretty pricey stuff for a 18 year old kid--especially in the neighborhood i grew up in. i remember getting some looks from others at a gig once, this young kid with nice stuff, and a older guy from another band said to me "as long as you can play, those looks don't mean shit."
luckily i could play. but that's what it really comes down to...can you play the guitar? then it doesn't matter if you have a 200 dollar beater, or a 2,000 beauty.
hfc, your words and posts come off like a guy who can play, and as far as i'm concerned, if it ends up being an expensive instrument that suits you--cool--you've earned it. but if a cheaper one strikes your fancy, as long as you're making good music, you're right on track too.
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Hey Mr. B. Thanks for the kind words. During my 90's collection frenzy, it almost seemed like the cooler the guitar you had, the more serious a musician you were. At least that's what I used to read in some of the guitar mags of the time. It was almost like you went somewhere to play, pulled out some L5 copy which sounded and played great and you were ignored most of the night. Then some dude would come in, "unzip his fly" and pull out a sea foam green 57 Strat and some boutique amp and no matter how loud or lousy he played, other players (and of course the ladies) would flock around this dude worshipping each distorted, crumpled note that crawled or fell out of his amp. Then they'd say stuff like "wow, listen to the tone of that instrument. You can't get a new one to sound like that." I was confused. Then when I finally got some of those real cool instruments, I played no better than I did with the copy. I even recorded myself playing each of my "glorious" instruments and forgot the order I played them in so I could see if I could tell them apart. To my chagrin, each passage sounded like I was playing the same dang guitar. What a lousy wake up call. Just think of all the money I wasted chasing the "ultimate sound". Finally, I quit collecting, sold all of my extra guitars, brought the number down to 2 and (I had owned up to 30 at one time) concentrated on the music and what the better players I trusted were teaching. I must confess, I do own a Vestax copy of a D'Angelico New Yorker and have owned an original 39 D'A Excel. But the reason for me having those instruments now is because they remind me ofthey remind me of the great times I had in New York City growing up as a kid . With their stairstep patterns and art deco parts, I can see the old buildings, picture the grand old hotels, supper clubs, night clubs, jazz clubs and orchestras where you'd find some obscure dude chunking out rhythms or playing sweet chords behind some gorgeous torch singer. I can see the people dancing around in their finest tuxes and gowns inside art deco furnished ballrooms to some of the greatest musical compositions and arrangements we've ever heard. It even reminds me of the esteemed assemblage of great musicians many of us admire running in and out of that little shop on Kenmare street. Believe me when I say I don't care anymore what people think about the axe I play. The thrill of what I just described and playing that kind of music more than makes up for someone's useless opinion.
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When I was a kid I wanted to buy a Gibson Les Paul rther than a copy and with whatever money I had left over I would buy an amp. My teacher gave me some good advise. He said to put more money into the amp because no matter how good the guitar, if the amp sounds bad the guitar will sound bad no matter how good a brand it is. I remember onetime at Mandolin brothers I had the oppurtunity to play a bunch of high priced archtops. (both D'As - johnny and jimmy, gibsons and a Benedetto. The Benedetto I played had the absolute deadest tone. A real pooch. Noticably dead tone.) You can get a great sounding inexpensive guitar Sometimes if your not careful you can also get a lousy sounding expensive guitar. The only constant is that you should play it before you buy it. (unless you get somone to custom build one for you)
Last edited by JohnW400; 10-16-2008 at 10:24 PM.
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That's weird John. When I was at Gruhn Guitars last month, I tried out both D'A's (one was even refinished), a super 400 and a Benedetto Fratello. The refinished D'angelico sounded the best. I found the Benedetto to be the worst of them all. I told the sales guy that the guitar sounded pinched off compared to the D'A's. I also tried a Cremona elsewhere and the 5th and 6th strings were dead as a doornail. Rats! Do they have that kind of reputation or have I truly played some lox's. BTW, D'Angelico New Yorkers will always be my favorite guitarn not so much bcause of the great tone and reputation but because of the stairstep, Empire State inlays and New York art deco look.
Last edited by hot ford coupe; 10-16-2008 at 10:45 PM.
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did you play the 2 Mel Bay D'Aquistos he has ? He wants 75 large for each one of those babies. That a lot of cake.
I've only played the one Benedetto. But you see a lot of people with them like Jimmy Bruno, Bucky, Royce Cambell. Vic Juris had one way back in the 80's I think. It comes up for sale every once in a while at Mandolin Brothers.
I like the D'Angelicos too. But I'm a sucker for the Jimmy D' design. I dig a wooden tail piece. I have found one builder who I like a lot. That's Mark Campallone. He makes an excellent 'workingmans' guitar out of all solid woods and at a reasonable price. His standard model is about $4200 these days. All carved, solid woods. i had him make me an oval hole standard with upgraded woods. It's on his site in the gallery section. The front is in the oval hole group and the back is under the quilted woods group. It's a beautiful guitar and it sound wonderful. excellent balance. and it didn't break the bank. It cost about a 1/3 of what a Benedetto costs.
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I played the 74 Mel Bay D'Aquisto. Not bad at all. I had a problem over there that day. I can't play without a strap because of loads of arthritis in my back which doesn't allow me to bend at the right angle. I also can't cross my legs because I have two hip relacements. I hold the neck of the guitar a bit higher and the lower bout instead of the guitar waist is resting on my right thigh. Classical position puts the neck too far out for me. When there's no strap button at the neck, I can tie the strap in such a way that I don't need the button. The guy helping me out was in a real mood and wouldn't get a strap for me so holding and playing the instruments was uncomfortable and awkward to say the least. I sounded like I couldn't play but I was able to get enough out of the instruments to hear what I needed to hear. The Jimmy D. sounded great and was wide open. It was a bit brighter than the Johnny D's. The Benedetto Manhattan (not a Fratello) was noticeably less open and responsive just like the other one I played elsewhere. I also played Homer Haynes D'Angelico Excel and what a sound it had. It was like pure sugar coming out of the "f" holes. It played like it was already in the amp. Hey, for $65,000 clams, it better. Even the refinished D'Angelico he had there sounded fantastic. That's the kind of pure acoustic sound I love. I just wish the sales guy was more patient and helpful.
BTW, I also like the look of the Campellone. I've never played one but I know it's a solid, well made instrument. Quilted maple is my favorite wood for the backs.
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I have to admit that I am really amazed with what is coming out of the pacific rim these days. I just bought a Korean Breedlove flat top and Chinese Artcore AG85. Excellent guitars at a cheap price! My Roland 20 also amazes me for the price, but I once heard Robben Ford play jazz/blues through a Howard Dumble amp and it was darn near a religious experience. I don't remember the guitar he played, some kind of wierd Fender 335 thingy (another topic) but I do remember that amp. I'll bet even I would sound good through that amp, buttery overdrive with a ton of harmonics and a glassy clarity at the same time. Of course the amps are real expensive and he only makes them when he wants to and for who he wants to and I have never heard of one used. It is ultimately about tone and yes it does come from our fingers but some things really help you sound better than you are or are so good they inspire the talent buried down deep. BUT say $600 today can buy a guitar and amp good enough for most of us and will not hold us back.
Last edited by Steve Cat; 10-19-2008 at 06:06 PM.
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I am going to guess you saw Robben playing his signature Fender Elite RF signature. He played that for many years. These days he plays a number of different guitars. Check youtube, as he is pretty popular there, and there are lots of performances of him to be found.
As far as a Dumble Overdrive Special, he does play that, but there are a number of companies who have built replicas that do a great job. Some makers who do that are US companies are Two Rock, Bludotone, Brown Note, and Fuchs. Robben has switched to his Bludotone as Dumble is rumored to be in poor health, and does not service his amps anymore.
There is a Malaysian based company, Ceriatone, who also makes one for around $1k. You can buy it as a kit, or in various stages of completion, or fully assembled. I bought mine this way, but got the cab over here to save on shipping costs. Wonderful amp. Here is a link if you are interested. Nik the owner is a great guy, quick communication, and has a good rep. There are licensed sites here to do work on his stuff.
Ceriatone Amplification
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As long as they're well made, the Asian guitars are really a great deal for the money. Many of them, especially the Artcore line work and sounds as good as some of the expensive ones. The only thing is when you go to buy one, you have to check each one out personally to make sure you're getting a good one and that it will do what you ask of it without expensive adjustments. I've got two Vestax made D'Angelicos, one blonde and one sunburst. The blonde one is incredible. The sunburst one is one of the worst guitars I ever bought (but it could probably be fixed). No, I bought them both sight unseen. Dumb move.
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"Shredding, speed and volume seems to be the goal. Then one goes out and buys the 1959 Les Paul ($100,000 !!), $12,000 worth of amps, and $2,000 worth of distortion effects so it sounds like a $2 guitar in a $3 amp. Save your money. Poke your speaker cone with a screw driver."
Thanks. I got a good chuckle out of that.
"I've heard some incredible things coming from guitarists that were playing supposedly inferior instruments."
Likewise. I try to take in as much live music as I can. I've seen no correlation between quality of gear and quality of performance.
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I'm glad you liked the comments,TDD. I used to go into a lot of music stores and hang around to see what kind of players showed up. If you do that, you'll wind up with a good hour or two of good entertainment. They talk about a lot of stuff I have no idea what it is, like different types of distortion boxes, pedals, amp terms I never heard before but I never hear about the music itself. Then they pull a hunk of wood off the wall and bang out a few "power chords" a bunch of noisy notes which I think is supposed to be a solo. Then two of them get together and "jam" and then no one else can hear what they're trying out. Several times I did something shameless and naughty. After they get done, start talking about stuff and it's quiet again, I go over and pick up a similar instrument and I start to play something like Darn That Dream. They usually look over, stop talking, put down the guitars and walk out of the store. I don't mean to sound snobbish at all since I'm not a guitar guru or even that great but I wonder sometimes whether or not some of these players were really taught music or just a bunch of block shapes on the neck. Most of them don't read music or even say that reading music is a hindrance to their playing because it takes away the feeling and the soul of the music. You may also ask what happens when I play my Darn That Dream and someone else picks up an axe and makes me look ridiculous. Simple. Free guitar lessons. I ask what the cat is doing and learn a heck of a lot.
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Hot Ford,
I just wanted to chime in since I know where you are coming from. My wife keeps telling me that I will have to buy another house to store all of my music gear. I got into a mode that another guitar/pedal/amp/etc. will help make the sound I hear in my mind. But I can safely say that I got more out of sitting down with a scale book and my old stuff than I ever did with a new piece of gear.
Also thanks for the reference to Darn that Dream, I have been listening to different versions on you tube lately and it sounds great. Do you play the slower version or the uptempo?
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Hi HFC,
You're only a few years older than I am, and probably a much better player. I picked up my first guitar around 1967, but have really only attempted to become a "serious" player since 1999.
I've heard a lot of the gear talk to which you refer and have admittedly participated in quite a bit of that myself. There's a whole language and subculture that has sprung up around distorted guitar tones. An easy way to identify players who belong to that culture is by asking the question: "What's more important, your guitar or your amp?" The members of the distortion subculture will *always* choose the amp.
The first few years after I started playing again (after a 20-year layoff) I played in various local rock bands. I quit the last one in 2003 out of boredom and frustration with the abysmally-poor musicianship amongst amateur rockers.
That said, I have met a few local rockers who have impressive skills. I can admire their talents without necessarily appreciating the music.
As you inferred, though, the average rocker views the guitar more as a fashion accessory than an instrument; if you have enough pedals you don't need much skill to make a fairly impressive noise.
Nowadays I'll plug my guitar into any clean amp I can find. I don't really care much as long as the amp is easy to carry. In fact I use a DI when I can get away with it.
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I have to say,
Today, for the first time i played thru my new rig. A two Rock cab, A dumble clone amp (a mystic blue star by Tommy Cougar) an m-one tc electronic Reverb, a 2290 tc delay, a dumblator, which basically takes on the effects and keeps the amp sound true.
I am stunned. What a sound!! I totally agree with what's been said here.
But my sound today was absolutely rockin. The clean was beautiful and the distortion was fat and chewy and i just realised i'm gloating. Had to share my excitement!!!!!!!!
Bloody ell!!!!
Mike
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Originally Posted by jasmeece
After going through a number of hurricanes attacking my house, I decided to get out of collecting and move out of Northwest Florida. I dumped all my vintage guitars except the very few that wouldn't sell and bought a '39 D'Angelico Excel with the proceeds. (not as expensive as you might think.) That'll give you an idea of how many axes I collected over a 15 year period. I play the slow version of Darn That Dream I got off of a Joe Beck instructional vid. I changed a few things so it wouldn't be exactly like his. Check out Youtube. There are several good versions.
Hey TDD. I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed the subculture you're talking about. I think part of the problem is the way the guitar is taught by a majority of teachers. Kids are taught to "put your fingers here and there" and play chords well before they learn what notes are actually under their fingers. They're not taught to read music but they're only taught to read tab or chord diagrams. They never really learn the basics. They can play in E A G C D but are completely lost when you come to a song in Bb, Eb or sometimes even F. That's where most standards seem to be written. The only way they can play in any odd key is to use the capo which I generally hate with a passion. For the record, very few of the players I've heard really don't know how to properly use a capo in the first place. So I don't get fried here, I must say I believe a capo is called for in an odd key like Bb or Ab when the sound of open string harmonies cannot be played any other way. That way, I'm not stepping on anyone's toes. I also believe that if guitar was taught in the traditional manner like the piano, brass or woods, there would be a lot fewer guitar players. There I go ranting again.
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Hi HFC,
I'm fascinated by this conversation, but feel guilty about hijacking this thread. Perhaps we should carry this on in a separate topic.
The guitar has always been a "folk" instrument first. People who can't afford anything else can always play a guitar. When I was running a coffehouse in college I remember how one of the guitarists told me "The guitar is a funny instrument; anyone can learn to play in a day or two. You can then spend the rest of your life trying to master the instrument..."
It's that instant-gratifiation thing that drives guitar sales and much (not all) pop music. Honestly, it's what hooked me on guitar in 1967. I grew up in an extended family loaded with classical musicians who performed and taught. I had lots of opportunity (and encouragement) to study music, and turned it down because I wasn't offered anything even remotely matching my interests. Pop music is all about sound, style and attitude.
Decades later I realized that there's a lot more to music than sounds and style, and started to learn about music. I'm still learning, and enjoying it immensely. But I still grok the folk cultural aspects of guitar-playing.
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