Gibson Byrdland

[Lux]

Wow Lux, That must be a winner. That 1 3/4" is more important than the scale length IMO. And the Bigsby! Photos please.

Yes! It's great, love the sound and the neck feels great...here's a dealer pic, I'll post some more in a new thread.

In reality, it's probably 1 11/16, but it feels wider... Don't know why, maybe a trick of the mind!

[Cooperro]

>>> most Byrdlands I've played have stupid skinny little necks


The shorter scale is really only VERY slightly different than playing a given song one semi-tone higher. So if a player can play up a half-step on a more typically-scaled guitar without getting the vapors, then the Byrdland scale is often not a practical problem.

Chris

Be careful now. That would be like playing EVERY song in your repertoire up a half step. So, to get the true feel, you'd have to capo up a fret and eliminate the first fret entirely. Ignore the fret markers and side dots, and run through your tunes that way for a week. I have a Jag, and love the short scale for bebop, but I can feel the lack of real estate for chord solo work. Even my Bambino with its 25" scale - I can feel the difference when I switch to my L5. Both of my ES's feel a tad cramped too (24.75") when playing chord solos taking me above the fifth fret...

You definitely need a return policy with a week to put some serious quiet time on it playing ALL the tunes you might want to use it for. And to get beyond the "ga ga" period of this gorgeous instrument. And the tone too through your favorite amp. That scale and the neck pickup placement will affect its tone for sure. Lots to think about, feel, and absorb. Plus, there's always this: why do most professional instruments fall between 24.75" to 25.5"? And then there's 25.75" acoustics and more on classicals too to accomodate complex fingerings. I suppose it comes down to what do you really see yourself doing with this beauty. If it's a lot of chord solo work, this might not be the ax for you.

These are just my random thoughts while sitting in a boring meeting. And PTChris, I love your input on this forum, and hope you don't take my "old school" opinion as an afront to you.

Bob in South Florida

[boptotheleft]

For chord solo gigs, this is my go to guitar. I have a medium-large size hands but stretch chords are not my strongest feature.. So the short scale helps in regards to that. To be honest, All of the concerns and opinions on the thread are legitimate-the Byrd was not made for everybody. Certainly not for an L5 believers in particular.
I personally would never trade the byrdland for anything. It's a great work horse that has a vast array of sound colors and the feel is second to none. It's also easier to fly with than the full sized Heritage archtop I used to own.

The strings tension is little looser then the 25.5 guitars so it allows me to apply less pressure while playing chords on the lower position. For single note lines, it feels like butter. A true bebop machine gun!

[Cooperro]

For chord solo gigs, this is my go to guitar. I have a medium-large size hands but stretch chords are not my strongest feature.. So the short scale helps in regards to that. To be honest, All of the concerns and opinions on the thread are legitimate-the Byrd was not made for everybody. Certainly not for an L5 believers in particular.
I personally would never trade the byrdland for anything. It's a great work horse that has a vast array of sound colors and the feel is second to none. It's also easier to fly with than the full sized Heritage archtop I used to own.

The strings tension is little looser then the 25.5 guitars so it allows me to apply less pressure while playing chords on the lower position. For single note lines, it feels like butter. A true bebop machine gun!

Yes Bop, I'd have to agree. I'd love to have a Byrdland to compliment my L5. I'm sure I'd love it - they're drop dead gorgeous in my eyes. And like my Jaguar, I'm sure I'd adapt to it for whatever it is I want to do. After all, I adapt to my Taylor nylon with the 25.75 width nut and higher action playing my chord solo stuff. Sure, I play a few clams every now and then, but I eventually adapt. And, I'd never sell it either. As an aside, I've regretted every guitar I sold, and swore I'd never sell again - I love them all.

[AlainJazz]

I recently decided NOT to sell my Byrdland. They are wonderful guitars. I also have an L5CES and a sadowsky Jim hall. All of these guitars have different scales. Honestly, for me personally, I have no issue at all switching between guitars and I often do. I've never found the short scale to be an issue. Quite the contrary. For many things it is easier to play than my other guitars. Somebody missed out on a very very good deal on a beautiful guitar and I am very glad they did or I wouldn't have it anymore. I don't know what I was thinking. The Byrdland is a GREAT jazz guitar.

[jads57]

Just played a couple of brand new Gibson Byrdlands recently. They were wondrful instruments and as stated before here in this thread necks are to short of a scale. They have seem to make them a bit wider like the normal L-5's but that's probably more to do w/ not having to make special narrow p/ups like on the originals.

[Danny W.]

Just played a couple of brand new Gibson Byrdlands recently. They were wondrful instruments and as stated before here in this thread necks are to short of a scale. They have seem to make them a bit wider like the normal L-5's but that's probably more to do w/ not having to make special narrow p/ups like on the originals.

Most modern Byrdlands have had the 1 & 11/16" neck width. I had a beautiful 1994 in vintage sunburst that I'd still have if it had a 25.4" scale.

Danny W.

[Frank67]

Just yesterday I played my Epiphone elitist Byrdland and thought "man that guitar sounds great". The short scale oesn't bother me.

[boptotheleft]

I recently decided NOT to sell my Byrdland. They are wonderful guitars. I also have an L5CES and a sadowsky Jim hall. All of these guitars have different scales. Honestly, for me personally, I have no issue at all switching between guitars and I often do. I've never found the short scale to be an issue. Quite the contrary. For many things it is easier to play than my other guitars. Somebody missed out on a very very good deal on a beautiful guitar and I am very glad they did or I wouldn't have it anymore. I don't know what I was thinking. The Byrdland is a GREAT jazz guitar.

It is nice you kept the Byrd! I have read a quote on a Gibson forum that "Price is of no consequence whatsoever, until value has been established”...if you dig..)

You have a nice fleet of rolls royces in there! FYI, although the Sadowsky archtops are a Laminate top, they can teach many carved tops a serious lesson is humility and sound..IMO..

[AlainJazz]

It is nice you kept the Byrd! I have read a quote on a Gibson forum that "Price is of no consequence whatsoever, until value has been established”...if you dig..)

You have a nice fleet of rolls royces in there! FYI, although the Sadowsky archtops are a Laminate top, they can teach many carved tops a serious lesson is humility and sound..IMO..

Yes, totally agree. Acoustically, the JH is the best of the bunch. Amplified, it's a toss up. They all sound great in their own way.

[Phil in London]

I would be interested in the respected forum haunters' opinions on this listing: Detailsicht Vintage Objekt | A-1193

In my view, this one is in good condition, with the narrow nut being a (known) minus in the equation, and the parts where the finish is gone. Any detective-type input re hardware etc? The soldering on the PAFs looks a bit clumsy, so maybe they were opened in the past...?

[Archie]

Byrdland's are going down in price. Buying a rare or vintage guitar from Europe is like asking to have your wallet plundered.

[Phil in London]

I was actually not reflecting price, but since you raised the issue: The 2014 price guide shows 1960 sunburst PAF BL's at 8.100 to 10.100 USD. At current EURUSD rates, and adding 23% import VAT, customs and standard freight costs, that would mean some 8.500 to 10.600 Euro. If all original, 8.900 Euro seems, therefore, not exactly a wallet rape. But of course, all those 'market prices' are relative at the end, as is paper money in the first place.

[Archie]

I was actually not reflecting price, but since you raised the issue: The 2014 price guide shows 1960 sunburst PAF BL's at 8.100 to 10.100 USD. At current EURUSD rates, and adding 23% import VAT, customs and standard freight costs, that would mean some 8.500 to 10.600 Euro. If all original, 8.900 Euro seems, therefore, not exactly a wallet rape. But of course, all those 'market prices' are relative at the end, as is paper money in the first place.

Fair enough. I would never buy a guitar based on book price. They might get away with that nonsense and market shaping with cars but guitars, no.

I can bet you now, every guitar I'v bought, I've bought under book, way under.

Remember a guitar is worth what someone is willing to pay for it not what a piece of paper tells you.

There are plenty in the US on over priced sites like Gbase that you could swing for $5000 and that would be about £4500 landed. Unless my sums are way out.

[Phil in London]

I have not seen the recent ads were 1960 Byrdland with PAFs were sold under 8k USD. The gbase listings go from 12.000 to 17.000, and yes, thats negotiable. But still, way off 8k. And again, if you neutralise VAT and customs as well as FX conversion, the EUR price converts into something like 8.400 USD, so where is this 'a hell lot more than in the US'...

PS: just now, a rather battered and in need of restauration 197x L5 sold on ebay over 5k US... this might also be an indication as to where the market stands (sometimes)...

[bananafist]

The solder on those PAFs looks ok to me. The other PAFs I've seen were similarly 'untidy'. Probably because a lot of heat near pickup coils is not a great idea, hence the 'hit and git' principal of soldering.
Leaving out the price, it looks like a nice guitar to me, well loved and used, and built 'like they used to'.
Sadly the narrow nut and short scale would kill it for me, I drove from Portsmouth to Cardiff a few years ago to check out a 70s blonde Byrdland at Cranes, and so I know I couldn't live with this.

[Archie]

The solder on those PAFs looks ok to me. The other PAFs I've seen were similarly 'untidy'. Probably because a lot of heat near pickup coils is not a great idea, hence the 'hit and git' principal of soldering.
Leaving out the price, it looks like a nice guitar to me, well loved and used, and built 'like they used to'.
Sadly the narrow nut and short scale would kill it for me, I drove from Portsmouth to Cardiff a few years ago to check out a 70s blonde Byrdland at Cranes, and so I know I couldn't live with this.

I'm not sure I understand the 'built like they used to' comment as I had a 91 Byrdland signed by Jim Triggs and I don't think you could have made one any better. It had exactly the same specs (as far as i know) and the woods where absolutely top draw.

Sure the sound of older guitars is different but thats not to say they were made any better than the one I had.

Haven't tried a modern one (I suspect 91 is on the border of vintage, yeh I wouldn't call it that myself) but a new one could well be a different animal. I don't know. Certainly the 70's ones were plain and not to my taste. In the early 90's I think everything Gibson did, got much better, but has subsequently slipped again.

[old tube]

PAFs, look OK. I'd question the originality of the pickguard, it just looks too "straight" and shiny, considering the guitar has clearly taken a lot of play wear over the years. Should be more "bent". Not sure why, but I'm suspicious of the control knobs also, can't tell from the photos if the have the correct amt. of plastic above the pot insert and again they look a bit "new". Lastly the base of the bridge looks more like Indian rosewood, going by the pore size / depth. It may be original but may be later. ABR's are a lottery these days as the repros are so good, it could be original or not, again it looks a bit "new" in terms of (lack of) wear around the saddles.

Nothing that will affect the playing of the guitar, but would affect the "all original to the last screw" claim and therefore the price

[Phil in London]

PAFs, look OK. I'd question the originality of the pickguard, it just looks too "straight" and shiny, considering the guitar has clearly taken a lot of play wear over the years. Should be more "bent". Not sure why, but I'm suspicious of the control knobs also, can't tell from the photos if the have the correct amt. of plastic above the pot insert and again they look a bit "new". Lastly the base of the bridge looks more like Indian rosewood, going by the pore size / depth. It may be original but may be later. ABR's are a lottery these days as the repros are so good, it could be original or not, again it looks a bit "new" in terms of (lack of) wear around the saddles.

Nothing that will affect the playing of the guitar, but would affect the "all original to the last screw" claim and therefore the price

Indeed the plastic cover of the knobs is missing, if compared to my ES175 and ES330 from the 60s. Bridge is also a good point. Many thanks!

[Archie]

PAFs, look OK. I'd question the originality of the pickguard, it just looks too "straight" and shiny, considering the guitar has clearly taken a lot of play wear over the years. Should be more "bent". Not sure why, but I'm suspicious of the control knobs also, can't tell from the photos if the have the correct amt. of plastic above the pot insert and again they look a bit "new". Lastly the base of the bridge looks more like Indian rosewood, going by the pore size / depth. It may be original but may be later. ABR's are a lottery these days as the repros are so good, it could be original or not, again it looks a bit "new" in terms of (lack of) wear around the saddles.

Nothing that will affect the playing of the guitar, but would affect the "all original to the last screw" claim and therefore the price

Always a joy to see when someone knows their stuff to the point you never want to sell them a guitar.

Love it when someone knows its not the original pot because the knob sits 2mm higher than it should in 1967 (example).

Takes a long time to build up that kind of knowledge. kudos

[old tube]

Always a joy to see when someone knows their stuff to the point of you never want to sell them a guitar.

Love it when someone knows its not the original pot because the knob sits 2mm higher than it should in 1967 (example).

Takes a long time to build up that kind of knowledge. kudos

I've got a few old Gibsons and it has proven to be very handy to know the sequence of changes to the components over the years. I just like to know that I'm getting what I should be, probably my Scottishness!

If I'm buying vintage from a dealer, I expect them to know more than me.

I agree that some of it is ridiculous e.g. the height of the control knob, but the price of genuine second hand parts ultimately has a part to play in the high prices of fully original vintage genuine guitars. Nothing to do with the playability, all about originality.

Unfortunately it's the Jazz boxes that seem to take the hit getting parted out to feed the vintage Les Paul and ES Semi market where the price of originality is much higher.

[plasticpigeon]

Looks very nice to me. I didn't know that we had to pay VAT and import tax from the EU.

[old tube]

Indeed the plastic cover of the knobs is missing, if compared to my ES175 and ES330 from the 60s. Bridge is also a good point. Many thanks!

The "foil" insert knobs started in Mid 1960. Though there seems to have been crossover. I've got a late 1960 ES330 (going by the neck profile) which has knobs which I know are original to the guitar, same as on that Byrdland, without the foil tops.

[wintermoon]

that guitar is 100% other than the strap button.
1960 is the last year for those control knobs and the last year for the venetian cutaway on electric archtops until reintroduced in late '68.
the guard is even original, you can't find that type of swirly plastic today.

[Archie]

Looks like some binding coming lose at the nut n the treble side. certainly looks swollen in the pic. High E seems dangerously close the the fret nibs too although lines up, I guess just a design flaw with the model.