nut file-ing

[kris]

"But it is amazing how fine a guitar can play when really set up well - and this begins at the nut.

It is also amazing how limited a setup can be when the nut is goofy. You can not fix the problems with other adjustments."
+1 for Chris

[jazzbow]

There's been lots of good advice in this thread but I haven't read an explanation to the original poster re: why he shouldn't just file down the bottom of the nut given his given his stated situation and goals.

It's all about keeping things square for Gibson nuts, slanted for Martin nuts and curved for Fender nuts. Sanding the bottom of any of these style of nuts while keeping the nut face at 90 degrees relative to the fingerboard without taking too much mass away from the nut is too much trouble and brain ache. Also mass produced guitars are set up to play ok straight out of the box but may need fine tuning for better performance.


New Asian guitar with jazzbows set up treatment, note the depth of E,A & D after lowering slots.


Now we lower the top of the nut.


Ooo! What a lovely looking nut.

Better to lower each slot to its optimum height!
Simple

BTW, the customer who brought this guitar for the full treatment was convinced he had a dog of a guitar but ole' jazzbow showed him he ain't never got no diggy dah doh doggie geetar! Yup!

[PTChristopher]

Gents,

I do not want to be "right" because someone else is wrong.

Spook,

I am 100% sure that you will be able to do a superb job with a nut. Sure it might take a try or two, but material is pretty cheap. And then you will spoiled for life because you will know how great you can make your own guitar play.

OK, deep breaths, get in touch with my oft-hidden non-jackass side:

The reasons you do not file a nut from the bottom:

- It is hard to get the bottom nice and square and in full contact with the nut slot. So don't try to do this in combo with setting the nut height.

- Nut height is SO IMPORTANT to a superb setup. You can not do this for all strings at once by trimming the bottom. It is a slot by slot process. Really, you can do an OK job on your Les Paul painted like that Zakk guys guitar with the nut slots only a little off. But we are talking (I hope) about SUPERB setups here. Crap-o-potamus setups are common and some are even almost OK. But can we aim a little higher here? It's fun.

- Getting a nut in and out is often easy, but it is not without potential trouble. So why do it for no real benefit. IF the bottom was filed close to the right height, you still need to do the hard part, which is careful (not necessarily time consuming) setup of each slot. So filing the bottom does really very little of the real work.

Now I must have done about ~1,000 (or maybe quite a bit more) nuts with files that I ground myself into a usable set before getting anything made for slot work. So while you do not need to spend the $$$ for purpose made files, they are helpful.

Anyway. My opinion is that we should aim for superb around here. A $400 guitar can be made to play superbly, and so can a $14,000 guitar. It starts with the nut.

I have nothing against marginal work that a player can live with. I just don't want to be involved in doing it.

Chris

[PTChristopher]

Ooooh. Jazzbow posted simpler and clearer versions of my opinions while I was typing.

>>> the customer who brought this guitar for the full treatment was convinced he had a dog of a guitar but ole' jazzbow showed him

Indeed. I am sure you did.

It is amazing how much you can improve the majority of guitars out there BEING PLAYED DAILY with some nut work.

Thanks for the post there J'Bow.

[jazzbow]

Yes, low to mid priced guitars are all in need of tweaking with very few exceptions.

Please, anyone reading this whom has a one of these priced guitars you will be shocked by just how much better it will play and sound after a set up.

I hear 'Wow' or see dumbstruck expressions from customers 'new' to guitar set ups with their freshly fettled Fenders and gloriously gleaned Gibson styled Asian copied guitars

Yes, Chris, stickies? You get me PM?

[PTChristopher]

Got it JB. I'll write back later (or maybe Monday).

[davelang]

+1 for everything that's been said today - nice post jazzbow

[PTChristopher]

>>> I do have a question about the feeler gauge. It seems it might be easier for some than eyeballing 'a hairs width' at the first fret as you hold down the second.

The conceptually ideal gap is essentially no gap at all, so the nut slots are the same height as the frets.

There is no practical way to use a feeler gauge to measure this. You look at the gap, then take the slot down until there is as little a gap as you can determine (by whatever method you prefer).

I can get a lower slot by first looking at the gap, the tapping the string against the fret. You can still hear a gap that is hard to see. A feeler gauge is not able to reliably measure anything so low, and it is harder to use than sighting and tapping a gap.

So: faster, easier, less expensive, more reliable. Sight and Tap.

And, you can go even lower (than sighting and tapping) while still being sure you are not too low. There is a built-in tool right there on the guitar. Any guesses?

Chris

[Gramps]

I'm getting tools. I'm getting blanks. I'm moderating my expectations with knowledge that I'm not going to get it right the first time. I'll be your first customer Chris.

I do have a question about the feeler gauge. It seems it might be easier for some than eyeballing 'a hairs width' at the first fret as you hold down the second. Also the video on Stewmac shows it being used as check the make sure you don't go too deep with the files. OK.. OK.. I can wait for the official instructions.

I think this is a great idea. I also think if they have the inclination, a guitar player should be able to do their own setup. Our instruments shift around due to humidity, temperature, bumps and bangs, and changes of string guages. Go for it. You'll learn a bunch.

I have a set if feeler guages that I've tried but personally find they weren't for me. Watch that the feeler guages sit flat on the fingerboard if you use them as a stop when fileing.

Good luck and let us know how it works for you.

[Gramps]

More great advice. I couldn't agree more.

>>> I do have a question about the feeler gauge. It seems it might be easier for some than eyeballing 'a hairs width' at the first fret as you hold down the second.

The conceptually ideal gap is essentially no gap at all, so the nut slots are the same height as the frets.

There is no practical way to use a feeler gauge to measure this. You look at the gap, then take the slot down until there is as little a gap as you can determine (by whatever method you prefer).

I can get a lower slot by first looking at the gap, the tapping the string against the fret. You can still hear a gap that is hard to see. A feeler gauge is not able to reliably measure anything so low, and it is harder to use than sighting and tapping a gap.


So: faster, easier, less expensive, more reliable. Sight and Tap.

And, you can go even lower (than sighting and tapping) while still being sure you are not too low. There is a built-in tool right there on the guitar. Any guesses?

Chris

[Gramps]

Chris wrote "The conceptually ideal gap is essentially no gap at all, so the nut slots are the same height as the frets.
There is no practical way to use a feeler gauge to measure this. You look at the gap, then take the slot down until there is as little a gap as you can determine (by whatever method you prefer). "

The only way I can see using the feeler guages is to have them set to the height of the first fret, then lay them on the fingerboard, against the nut and file down till you touch them with the file. Not use them to measure the gap between the first fret and the string when fretted between fret 2 and 3. This should ensure the nut slots are the same height as the first fret. The problem I had with this is keeping the feeler guage flat against the fingerboard while fileing. It wasn't worth it for me but conceptionally it should work and I have no doubt that some people use this technique succesfully.

[kris]

It's all about keeping things square for Gibson nuts, slanted for Martin nuts and curved for Fender nuts. Sanding the bottom of any of these style of nuts while keeping the nut face at 90 degrees relative to the fingerboard without taking too much mass away from the nut is too much trouble and brain ache. Also mass produced guitars are set up to play ok straight out of the box but may need fine tuning for better performance.


New Asian guitar with jazzbows set up treatment, note the depth of E,A & D after lowering slots.


Now we lower the top of the nut.


Ooo! What a lovely looking nut.

Better to lower each slot to its optimum height!
Simple

BTW, the customer who brought this guitar for the full treatment was convinced he had a dog of a guitar but ole' jazzbow showed him he ain't never got no diggy dah doh doggie geetar! Yup!

Nice pics!
Thanks
K

[kris]

Thanks
K

[kris]

Chris wrote "The conceptually ideal gap is essentially no gap at all, so the nut slots are the same height as the frets.
There is no practical way to use a feeler gauge to measure this. You look at the gap, then take the slot down until there is as little a gap as you can determine (by whatever method you prefer). "

The only way I can see using the feeler guages is to have them set to the height of the first fret, then lay them on the fingerboard, against the nut and file down till you touch them with the file. Not use them to measure the gap between the first fret and the string when fretted between fret 2 and 3. This should ensure the nut slots are the same height as the first fret. The problem I had with this is keeping the feeler guage flat against the fingerboard while fileing. It wasn't worth it for me but conceptionally it should work and I have no doubt that some people use this technique succesfully.

I have one guitar without the nut...:-)
just 0 fret instead of the nut.
It is expensive Frameworks Modern Clasic.
where is the nut?

[jazzbow]

Thanks
K

This device would be for setting truss rod for neck relief.
Cheapo way is capo on the first fret, finger on last fret. String becomes straight edge for measuring neck relief from 7th or 8th fret with appropriate measuring device.
This device or the cheapo way is fine but of course if the fret you are measuring is lower or higher in relation to the rest you are not going to get a true reading!

[jazzbow]

This link has some good info but check out the guitar string feeler gauge half ways down.

STEWMAC.COM : Issue 63, How to make a string nut for the first time

[kris]

This link has some good info but check out the guitar string feeler gauge half ways down.

STEWMAC.COM : Issue 63, How to make a string nut for the first time

Great.
Thanks
K

[Gramps]

Chris wrote "The conceptually ideal gap is essentially no gap at all, so the nut slots are the same height as the frets.
There is no practical way to use a feeler gauge to measure this. You look at the gap, then take the slot down until there is as little a gap as you can determine (by whatever method you prefer). "

The only way I can see using the feeler guages is to have them set to the height of the first fret, then lay them on the fingerboard, against the nut and file down till you touch them with the file. Not use them to measure the gap between the first fret and the string when fretted between fret 2 and 3. This should ensure the nut slots are the same height as the first fret. The problem I had with this is keeping the feeler guage flat against the fingerboard while fileing. It wasn't worth it for me but conceptionally it should work and I have no doubt that some people use this technique succesfully.

This is the type of feeler guage I was talking about.
Search results for “feeler gauge set” at Stewart-MacDonald