Washburn J600 - Solid Spruce Top?

[bborzell]

At a street price of $699, I would have expected a laminate top. But, on another of those larks, I decided to call Washburn and they told me it was a solid spruce top.

Reviews have been pretty good. The recordings I have heard, both acoustic and amped sounded quite good. The finish is a "you really like it or you really don't" kind of thing. I happen to like it. The tailpiece is all ebony, except for the hinge plate as opposed to some of the less expensive HBs that have an ebony cover on a wire tailpiece.

Anyone out there have one? I'd like to get confirmation on the top (although the f holes are bound, so it might be hard to tell). I'd also like to get feedback on playability and tone.

[NSJ]

Solid spruce is not the same thing as CARVED top. Still plywood----if it was carved, you can bet yer bottom dollar they would say so.

Check out Jeff Hale's site on the differences.

[bborzell]

Solid spruce is not the same thing as CARVED top. Still plywood----if it was carved, you can bet yer bottom dollar they would say so.

Check out Jeff Hale's site on the differences.

I am aware of the difference between laminated arch tops and carved arch tops. While I didn't state it clearly in the opening post, I specifically asked if the top was laminated. The tech said no it was not laminated. I'm not sure how one gets an arched top out of a solid piece of spruce other than carving or inducing the arch. I have two mandolins with solid induced arch tops, but the degree of arch that you get from inducing is significantly less than the look of the top on the J600.

The reason for my question here is to try to find anyone who has a J600 so I can get confirmation of what the tech at Washburn told me.

[fws6]

solid carved and laminated are pretty well understood. Both have their pro's and con's

"solid pressed woods" (like on this guitar) though is a commonly accepted eufemism in the world of guitar manufacturers. It means a laminate with a thick top layer and a much thinner laminate underneath. That way they can still press it into shape without the wood cracking. And because of the difference with a traditional laminate you could still argue it mostly solid woods.

Nothing wrong with this construction wise, just the semantics are a bit flattering description for what it actually is.

[bborzell]

solid carved and laminated are pretty well understood. Both have their pro's and con's

"solid pressed woods" (like on this guitar) though is a commonly accepted eufemism in the world of guitar manufacturers. It means a laminate with a thick top layer and a much thinner laminate underneath. That way they can still press it into shape without the wood cracking. And because of the difference with a traditional laminate you could still argue it mostly solid woods.

Nothing wrong with this construction wise, just the semantics are a bit flattering description for what it actually is.

That all makes sense, but it doesn't comport with Washburn's specific statement that the top is not a laminate. I will call again today and try to get a more precise statement from them, as in, is it carved or pressed.

[NSJ]

That all makes sense, but it doesn't comport with Washburn's specific statement that the top is not a laminate. I will call again today and try to get a more precise statement from them, as in, is it carved or pressed.

Either the guy doesn't know what he's talking about or he's LYING to you. It's clearly a laminate, despite the "solid top" Did you check out what Jeff Hale has said? As I said, check out Jeff Hale, who has written, particularly the part in BOLD:

"Laminated vs Solid vs Carved Archtop Construction
There are (3) different types of construction for the tops and backs (herein called “plates”) of archtop guitars. The terms used to describe these different construction techniques are as follows:

Carved. Done properly, this construction will produce an instrument with superior acoustic tone. The wood for a carved instrument is not "flat sawn" like planks you would purchase at a lumber yard. Instead the wood is "quarter sawn" into wedges (see picture). This creates the beautiful flame figure that is typical for maple back instruments. The wedges are not big enough to span the entire width of a typical archtop guitar top/back and as such, two pieces are glued together, side by side. To accomplish this a single quarter sawn wedge is split in two in much the same way you would open a large book. The resulting 2 pieces of wood are "book matched", glued together side by side, and have near identical grain patterns. These blocks are then carved into an arched plate with a thickness of around 1/8". Since this is the most expensive construction technique for stringed instruments, the manufacturer will always use the word CARVED in the description. If the manufacturer does not specifically mention the word CARVED, you can bet that it is a laminate. Unless the builder has done something very special, instruments with carved construction have the lowest tolerance to amplified feedback. The reason you would pay the extra money for a carved archtop is for the superior acoustic tone. Once in a while you will see an archtop with a top that is carved thicker than normal with the advertised benifit of improved tolerance to amplified feedback. This makes no sense whatsoever. What is being presented is an instrument with the acoustic qualities of a less expensive laminante archtop but with the additional cost of carved construction.

Laminate Type 1 (aka Solid Wood). This construction produces a warm, mellow acoustic tone with improved tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from 2 - 3 thin layers of high quality solid wood. Glue is applied between the pieces and then pressed to form an arched shape. The exposed layer of wood is typically a very thin slice of quarter sawn wood with excellent figure, flame or grain pattern. Even though this construction uses a laminate process, most manufacturer’s will use the term ‘Solid Wood’ in their descriptions and specifications. Note that if a manufacturer advertises an archtop as having a solid spruce top, you can bet it’s a laminate and not carved. (This does not hold true for flat top guitars. In this case, solid wood means the plates are made from a single piece of tone wood.)

Laminate Type 2. This construction produces the thinnest acoustic tone and typically has the best tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from multiple layers of unspecified wood (i.e. Plywood). The outermost layer is a very thin veneer which has traditional wood grain figure.

Note that the bracing of the plate (top) can produce wide variations in acoustic tone. Most luthiers have their own techniques for brace construction which can dramatically alter the acoustic tone and tolerance to amplified feedback.
So are carved archtops better than laminate? Only if you and your audience can hear the acoustic tone of your instrument. If you plan to play amplified in a club setting, a carved archtop could be a disaster. There are many high quality laminate archtops available, most notably from builders such as Roger Sadowsky and Bob Benedetto.

As you may have already inferred from the above, the better the acoustic tone, the more susceptible an instrument will be to amplified feedback. Conversely anything that degrades acoustic tone usually improves tolerance to amplified feedback. The most practical solution for increased tolerance involves plugging the f-holes with a foam or rubber type material. Check out www.dougsplugs.com"

[bborzell]

Either the guy doesn't know what he's talking about or he's LYING to you. It's clearly a laminate, despite the "solid top" Did you check out what Jeff Hale has said? As I said, check out Jeff Hale, who has written, particularly the part in BOLD:

"Laminated vs Solid vs Carved Archtop Construction
There are (3) different types of construction for the tops and backs (herein called “plates”) of archtop guitars. The terms used to describe these different construction techniques are as follows:

Carved. Done properly, this construction will produce an instrument with superior acoustic tone. The wood for a carved instrument is not "flat sawn" like planks you would purchase at a lumber yard. Instead the wood is "quarter sawn" into wedges (see picture). This creates the beautiful flame figure that is typical for maple back instruments. The wedges are not big enough to span the entire width of a typical archtop guitar top/back and as such, two pieces are glued together, side by side. To accomplish this a single quarter sawn wedge is split in two in much the same way you would open a large book. The resulting 2 pieces of wood are "book matched", glued together side by side, and have near identical grain patterns. These blocks are then carved into an arched plate with a thickness of around 1/8". Since this is the most expensive construction technique for stringed instruments, the manufacturer will always use the word CARVED in the description. If the manufacturer does not specifically mention the word CARVED, you can bet that it is a laminate. Unless the builder has done something very special, instruments with carved construction have the lowest tolerance to amplified feedback. The reason you would pay the extra money for a carved archtop is for the superior acoustic tone. Once in a while you will see an archtop with a top that is carved thicker than normal with the advertised benifit of improved tolerance to amplified feedback. This makes no sense whatsoever. What is being presented is an instrument with the acoustic qualities of a less expensive laminante archtop but with the additional cost of carved construction.

Laminate Type 1 (aka Solid Wood). This construction produces a warm, mellow acoustic tone with improved tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from 2 - 3 thin layers of high quality solid wood. Glue is applied between the pieces and then pressed to form an arched shape. The exposed layer of wood is typically a very thin slice of quarter sawn wood with excellent figure, flame or grain pattern. Even though this construction uses a laminate process, most manufacturer’s will use the term ‘Solid Wood’ in their descriptions and specifications. Note that if a manufacturer advertises an archtop as having a solid spruce top, you can bet it’s a laminate and not carved. (This does not hold true for flat top guitars. In this case, solid wood means the plates are made from a single piece of tone wood.)

Laminate Type 2. This construction produces the thinnest acoustic tone and typically has the best tolerance to amplified feedback. The plate is made from multiple layers of unspecified wood (i.e. Plywood). The outermost layer is a very thin veneer which has traditional wood grain figure.

Note that the bracing of the plate (top) can produce wide variations in acoustic tone. Most luthiers have their own techniques for brace construction which can dramatically alter the acoustic tone and tolerance to amplified feedback.
So are carved archtops better than laminate? Only if you and your audience can hear the acoustic tone of your instrument. If you plan to play amplified in a club setting, a carved archtop could be a disaster. There are many high quality laminate archtops available, most notably from builders such as Roger Sadowsky and Bob Benedetto.

As you may have already inferred from the above, the better the acoustic tone, the more susceptible an instrument will be to amplified feedback. Conversely anything that degrades acoustic tone usually improves tolerance to amplified feedback. The most practical solution for increased tolerance involves plugging the f-holes with a foam or rubber type material. Check out www.dougsplugs.com"

I am not arguing the merits or shortcomings of any of these construction methods. I own instruments that represent all three approaches and find that each is suitable to my needs.

My question is simple. Based up the apparentl reality that none of us have inspected or have first hand knowledge of how the Washburn top is constructed, I am simply seeking to determine which method was utilized for this guitar.

You state that the top is clearly a laminate, but you don't say how you came to that conclusion. Is it because you have inspected the guitar or simply because of the street price?

[mr. beaumont]

Washburn's website says "Spruce Top."

You can bet it's a laminate. No company would make a guitar with a solid top and be coy about it. The rep either didn't know any better or was yanking your chain.

Laminate shouldn't be a dirty word in the world of amplified archtops.

[fws6]

Noone is calling a laminate a dirty word

An Es175 is a mighty fine jazz guitar

it is just very euphemistic strange that all guitar companies are nowadays making pressed top laminate guitars in asia and calling them solid tops. Just because they use a very nice type of laminate doesnt maker it solid

if you want a carved top guitar than look for the word carved because the word solid woods is used to describe many things

[NSJ]

Laminate shouldn't be a dirty word in the world of amplified archtops.

Indeed. I myself have sold CARVED solid tone wood guitars in favor of keeping a few plywood laminate guitars.

Again, as FW6 has eloquently stated, this is all about how companies chose advertise their guitars. The BOLDED part of what Mr. Hale said above speaks to the idea of truth-in-advertsing.

The only type of NON-LAMINATE arch top guitar is a CARVED solid tone wood guitar. Period. If it is not carved, it is a laminate construction.

Both laminate guitars and carved guitars have their plusses and minuses. Many great jazz guitarists have preferred carved arch tops; many other jazz guitar greats have preferred laminate arch tops.

[PTChristopher]

While the Harmony Central vibe is flying:

How would one care to characterize a pressed top that is mostly a layer of spruce with a thin spruce veneer on top (in the SAME grain direction)?

It seems to not fit the above summaries in many (most?, all?) ways.

Chris

[mr. beaumont]

Noone is calling a laminate a dirty word

An Es175 is a mighty fine jazz guitar

it is just very euphemistic strange that all guitar companies are nowadays making pressed top laminate guitars in asia and calling them solid tops. Just because they use a very nice type of laminate doesnt maker it solid

if you want a carved top guitar than look for the word carved because the word solid woods is used to describe many things

Yeah, nobody here is...but it seems Washburn is afraid to say "laminate."

I think the deal is sales really. A $700 archtop is going to be targeted mostly to somebody starting out with jazz, and the word "laminate" might be a turn off for someone who hasn't been around the block yet.

[bborzell]

I called Washburn again. Apparently the fellow I originally spoke to had pulled his response from the nether regions of his anatomy. The tech I spoke to today confirmed that the J600 is indeed a maple laminate body and spruce laminate top.

None of this is to say that the lam construction makes this a bad guitar. Only that it is what it is.

[Buster Loaf]

What's that finish called, dirty barn door? I don't like the photo but I bet it looks better in person

[bborzell]

What's that finish called, dirty barn door? I don't like the photo but I bet it looks better in person

Sure does look like a barn door. But, I would add that it looks like a clean barn door to me. I wish my barn door looked like that.

[KevinV]

What's that finish called, dirty barn door? I don't like the photo but I bet it looks better in person

Thank you. I needed a good laugh...and that was funny.

[SamBooka]

I think Jysus has one.. maybe pm him?

[bborzell]

I think Jysus has one.. maybe pm him?

Looks like he has PMs and email turned off.

[Swingcat]

There are actually a couple of other top and back construction methods that weren't mentioned.
There are less expensive guitars out there that actually have solid non-laminated tops that were heat/steam pressed out of solid single-layer wood (still usually book matched). This creates a continuous grain, where carving cuts off grain as it angles up/down over the arch. These guitars usually have a continuous thickness, rather than the graduated thickness of a carved top. Although it's a less time consuming and less expensive method, it can create a great sounding archtop.
I have an old 16" Slingerland Songster, likely made by Harmony or Kay that has an amazing voice, quite loud and pleasing, and cuts very well. It was originally sold for $30, and another &5 for the case. I picked it up for $400, and it's a GREAT guitar. I've owned Super 400's, L-5's several New York Epiphones, etc, and it holds it's own!
The other method is kind of a hybrid method where the wood is pre- bent to the basic shape, and then carved the rest of the way. In this way, it is able to be graduated, but still retains most of the continuous grain. I've only played one guitar that was made with this method, and it was without a doubt the loudest and punchiest and best voiced archtop I've ever played, by vast measures. It was a total monster!
I'm not saying the Washburn is made in either of these methods, but the first may be a possibility. I've not played one, so I don't know the sound, so can't say for sure.

[Hammertone]

Thanks, Swingcat, although it's quite an old thread.

Jeff Hale's old description is misleading by its omission of solid, pressed plates, which have been in use since the 1930s and probably earlier. Many Harmony, Kay, Regal and other American archtops used steam-pressed solid wood top and back plates. Many German archtops used steam-pressed solid spruce tops as well.

You mention a pre-bent, then carved, hybrid building method - what guitar?

[Archie]

Yes the tricks of the trade, like 'Healthy' being put on s a sugar ladened granola bar, you just can't stop them.

I think referring to any laminate as solid is a con and ironically sine Jhail was cited as an authority on this, its a shame I have heard him use this term to sell laminate guitars (insert angry face).

At what point though do you stop? Most people claim their Epiphone Elite and Elitist guitars are solid but they are actually laminates and being the OCD nut job that I am, I have had to reprimand many an Ebay seller for giving false representations of their guitars top.

Also and back to the Washburn, I'm pretty sure they also have a sound post in side, certainly the HJ series does. Thats another good way to know if its solid (as in 1 piece). I doubt a solid top would then be accompanied by a sound post, although in this day in age, as like with all days in ages, stranger things have happened.

[Swingcat]

A luthier down in Southern California named Jim Ellsberry is using the "hybrid" method of pre-bending and then carving his arch top tops. He calls it the "Arch De Lutan".
I played one belonging to Nashville guitarist Jerry Krahn, who plays with Carolyn Martin Swing Band, Titan Hot Five, subs in The Time Jumpers, and a bunch of other things as well. His Arch de Lutan is nothing short of amazing. I played it at the Healdsburg Guitar Festival a few years ago, so I could compare it to archtops from all over the world, including Tom Ribecki, Linda Manzer, and so on. I must have played around forty handmade guitars by a lot of the worlds top luthiers, and the Arch de Lutan was by far miles ahead of the all of their best work. Quite noticeably louder and great sounding for both chunking out Swing rhythms and single line stuff. It cut cacophony of the Guitar Festival like no other guitars I played that day, and would definitely cut thru in an acoustic situation.

[Hammertone]

I went to his site, Custom Guitars - Archtops and Others and checked it out - very interesting.
Huntington Beach is not too far from Anaheim, where the NAMM show takes place every January.
Hmmm...

[mr quick]

I dig the look... Any word on how good of a guitar it is?

[Hammertone]

See Post #22.
I has a nice chat with Jim and he doesn't have an Arch De Lutan handy for me to inspectorate, but we'll probably get together at NAMM. My curiousity has been piqued, so I will endeavour to persevere.