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I think that a classical sounds better for jazz, than a flat-top. For some reason, the design of the Classical guitar lends itself to replacing the archtop because of things like not separation, note decay and attack. Plus its already a very well tried and tested sound by the likes of Charlie Byrd, Luiz Bonfa, Baden Powell.
Flattops sound too dull for jazz imo because the notes don't really pop in anyway, they don't really stand out and as much and have the same definition (lets call it note affirmation).
A flat top is best when strings are played open and allowed to ring which isn't the way Jazz Guitarists traditionally play.
To summarise Flat tops, just sound flat imo.
People are put off by the playability off a classical but with the right technique you can get around one of those just as easily as an archtop. Watching any classical guitarist will happily prove that.
I like RP's video playing but an Ovation will always sound like an Ovation which is to say, they have a kind of plastic sound (imo).
The flat-top also stops you from doing all the amazing things you can do on a classical, so I would go for a classical guitar, not only because its sounds better (imo) for jazz but they offer more styles to learn and play.
I just don't think this would sound as good on an a flat-top, especially an Ovation.Last edited by Archie; 10-10-2014 at 07:41 AM.
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10-10-2014 07:18 AM
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FWIW, I also love nylon strings for jazz. Particularly a well set up Flamenco guitar. The Yamaha CG172SF is a blanca with a solid spruce top - only $329 USD!
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I've played those Yamahas...and you're absolutely right, they're really cool. I may need one for my classroom.
Flamencos are cool for jazz because of the lower action and quick attack.
And of course, I think the rest of the world is crazy for not figuring out how good some of Taylor's guitars can be for jazz...but then, maybe I'm the crazy one.
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Real nice RP. I had an ovation elite for a while. I loved the sound, but just could not get comfy with it. The round body and v-neck. And my upper right arm would constantly rub against the control panel, changing the vol/sound unintentionally.
Originally Posted by rpguitar
Tried a Carvin AC375 on a whim and been happy with it ever since.
Carvin.com : AC375 THINLINE TRUE ACOUSTIC
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I like those Yamaha's too, except for that funky plastic ring around the sound hole!
That Carvin looks gorgeous!!!! I've toyed with the idea of an Ibanez Talman also, but really I just can't justify it. One thing I think is worth considering for an acoustic jazz guitar is that a cutaway is super useful for soloing . . .
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Given your location you might not be able to easily find these, but I would recommend either a Godin 5th Ave Acoustic or a Seagull (now owned by Godin). I have a pre-Godin Seagull with a cedar top and a cutaway (but no 'built-in' electronics, I don't know if you can get them like that, anymore) that I use for open key tunings, but will work for jazz in a pinch. Good luck!
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Keep the classical...
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+1 on a Seagull, I got a Maritime Mini Jumbo high gloss solid Spruce Top with cutaway and QII electronics and that is great sounding instrument. Their 1.8-inch nut width and 2 5/32-inch string spacing might not be for everyone but great for finger picking Originally Posted by ah.clem
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Godin, La Patrie, Seagull, Simon & Patrick, Art & Lutherie and Norman are guitar lines all branded under the corporate umbrella of La Si Do Corporation, the largest guitar manufacturer in North America. Originally Posted by ah.clem
There is no such thing as a pre-Godin Seagull. Robert Godin started the company in 1982 to build acoustic guitars.
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Really? Listen to Flamenco. Tomatito, Paco Peña, Vicente Amigo, Sabicas. I'm leaving out Paco de Lucia because of his crossovers into jazz. These boys are absolute monsters and they do it all on a 3 lb wooden box with plastic strings, no amps, picks or other silliness. Flattops with steel strings don't allow their techniques. Originally Posted by DRS
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Um, for one, the tone of the nylon strings. Originally Posted by DRS
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So why do we play steel strings at all?
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The same reason I eat both chocolate and vanilla ice cream. Originally Posted by DRS
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I would rather play my Martin 00016 than any archtop I've ever played, and I've owned some nice ones over the last 35 or 40 years. With K&K internal pickup, into powered speaker, this flattop gives me a sound I really like for the 30s-40s jazz/pop vocal duo jobs I play.
I always felt like an impostor playing electric archtops, as if that tonality created an expectation in the audience that I would "sound like a jazz guy". I kept buying archtops over the years, thinking that this was part of what I had to do in order to play jazz, even though I never really dug that type of guitar.
Hindsight is 20-20...
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Originally Posted by DRS
Well they are just different and as some have already pointed out, the plastic strings alone can make a big difference.
The other issue with flattops is the string tension. I don't know about you but my hand would be killing after playing some serious chords lower down the neck. The tension on a classical is much less and therefore much easier to play, until you get up the register.
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i love that nylon with the synth pad behind it Originally Posted by vinlander
thats the nicest guit/synth i've heard
fab gig and tune too
check the bass players RH technique
it works !
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There have been a lot of comments about flattops being hard to play. A well set up flattop does not have to be difficult to play. Flatttops tend to be set up from the factory with higher action than most jazzers like because these guitars may be used by folk, country, rock players...who knows? But they can be adjusted with a lower action suitable for jazz. It is just not as easy as twisting the wheels of a floating bridge. You have to do some sanding and once it's set up, that is where it stays unless you swap out the saddle.
I switch off between archtops of different stripes and flattops all the time to play the same music. They all work fine. It just depends on what mood I'm in. Now that there are so many choices for flattop pickups and it is easy to amplify them, there is no reason not to use them.
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I love all the discussion, examples, and different opinions! It's certainly broadening my idea of "a jazz guitar".
Been to a few shops, asked questions and tried different guitars. While some answers I got were less helpful ("get a cheap/poor guitar if you want less sustain and shimmer"), others were quite enlightening. There hasn't been much talk about how the shape of the body affects the sound, but I've been told that dreadnoughts have lots of bass and trebble, making them "slow" and shimmer (great for strumming or flatpicking), while orchestra models have a pronounced mid-range and "faster" sound, making them better suited for fingerplaying or jazz. Is this a hopeless generalisation, or do you agree? Flat-wound strings rather than the usual (for flattops) round-wound ones was also suggested to get a more jazzy sound. If all of this holds, and given the low availability of "affordable" archtops in my area, it seems my best choices are to either keep using a classical guitar, or get an orchestra model with flat-wound strings.
By the way, how do you feel about using smaller guitars? A Taylor GS mini was suggested at one shop, but would getting used to a guitar of that size make transition to a normal size guitar difficult? I'm not considering this option too seriously at the moment, but it was fun to play and easy to handle due to the small size.
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Actually I liked playing my D-28 and also like high action so felt good to me. Only thing for me was it didn't have a cut-away so playing up the neck was impossible for me. I used to use my D-28 a lot for practicing technique, to me it was kind of the weight bat thing and made me focus on getting a good sound. You hear things about your picking you don't with a electric guitar. Originally Posted by Chazmo
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To OP, Absence, there are a lot of generalizations floating around here and maybe that is what you are looking for, but it isn't that simple to say "here is THE acoustic guitar for jazz." Gabor Szabo played the heck out of a dreadnought. Django played a Selmer Macaferri. Tommy Emmanuel does some killer jazz work on small-bodied Martins, Gibsons, and Matons. I kind of like the small-bodied sound myself, as I stated in a previous post about my little 00 Martin. Check out what Eric Skye does with a Santa Cruz 00. But, I've used larger guitars and loved them all.
Flat wounds on an acoustic? Just don't use electric strings on an acoustic. It will sound awful. If standard strings are too bright, you can try ground wound acoustic strings. They sound bad to me, but you may like them. You can also try Elixer strings. The coating makes them sound like already well-used strings when you first put them on and they last longer. Personally, I like standard 80/20 bronze strings. Acoustic flattops have more shimmer than archtops. Embrace the shimmer.
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As Chazmo says, I certainly wouldn't use flatwounds on a flattop, but both Merle Travis and Tony Rice got great sounds out of their acoustic dreadnaughts using pure nickel wound strings.
As far a bronze strings go, I, too, personally prefer 80/20 over phosphor bronze. The 80/20s seem to be less harsh to my ear.
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Playing jazz on a Gypsy or a Flattop (to me) is just as fun as my Archtop. I think that you will be happier with flattops that are not mid-scooped or with too much overtone/sustain. My gypsy is punchier but my flattop is warmer, with more overtones and bloom.
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Besides the normal F hole type of archtops Eastman offers they offered an 17" Arch Back model w/ an round sound hole(flat top type)that sounded great!
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