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While I agree that jazz can be played on anything ...
I find myself pulled towards Gibson flattops when it comes to jazz tones that I like. They tend to be more mellow and less biting than Martin guitars and the many Martin flavored guitars from other makers.
My main flatop is an early 90s J-100 Xtra. It's like a J-200, but with mahogany back and sides. I've come close to adding other flattops to my collection, but when I find something I like more than my J-100 it usually comes with a rather hefty price tag and I tend to play my electrics more anyways.
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03-05-2012 05:06 PM
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I've recently started learning to play jazz as a hobby, and have used an old classical guitar I got for free. While it was a cheap way to get started, the high action, wide fretboard, etc. feels cumbersome and difficult to play. I understand the ideal guitars for jazz are semi-acoustic archtops, but I don't have room for an amp, and I really like being able to just pick up the guitar and start playing without mucking about with cables and stuff that has to be switched on. I also just play by myself. An acoustic archtop seems like a good alternative, but with a low budget the choices are very limited. The web is full of complaints about The Loar's quality issues, which basically leaves Gretsch New Yorker (are there others?). On the other hand, there are boatloads of western guitars in the same price range as the Gretsch, so I'm guessing it's possible to shop around and get much "more guitar" for the money that way. But then it wouldn't be an archtop.
What would you guys recommend, and why?
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I find western guitars can have two problems 1) they won't give you a traditional jazz tone (not an issue eventually) 2) the're very hard to play, specially for more than a few hours everyday.
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You can play jazz on anything. With a low budget - or really with any budget - playability is perhaps the #1 priority. The guitar has to feel good and be easy to play. This is especially true for a beginner, but applies to even the most seasoned player (the latter just has a far better idea of what physical characteristics he needs).
Personally I don't think a "traditional jazz tone" matters here. An acoustic archtop is not what most people think of as traditional, either, ironically. "Traditional" nowadays is a warm electric tone. So scratch that.
Flat tops are fine. The key, again, is playability. And one thing that goes out the window with a low budget is off-the-rack playability. Put bluntly: Most cheap flat tops play like crap.
I'll make a suggestion for a cheap flat top with good playability: A used Ovation. Yes, a vintage Balladeer, Legend, or Elite makes a very fine jazz guitar. Ovations have a somewhat flat, fundamental (fewer overtones) tone that works really well for jazz. And the made in USA models from the 70s and 80s can often be found for ridiculously cheap prices (under $500). They have slim necks, and removable shims under the bridge to adjust action without the need for filing things down.
Loar, Eastman, yes yes... but there are many other threads about those instruments. I thought I'd suggest something a bit more off kilter for your amusement and consideration.
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If you want a cheap acoustic to practice at home with, I'd recommend an inexpensive flattop guitar over the equivalent nylon string because the flattop's feel will easily translate to an archtop or solidbody should you decide to switch over. If you become accustomed to the nylon string guitar, the transition will be all the more difficult.
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The other advantage is that there is a huge variety of flat-tops out there, in a wide variety of shapes and sizes. Almost too much choice, in fact. And now you really don't have to spend much to get something that has good intonation and playability. Personally, I think they sound great for jazz.
I think the type of guitar you wind up needing has more to do with the circumstances under which it will be played--the volume, the other instruments, the control you have over you own amplification--than the genre does.
Russ
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Roger is steering you right. Ovation guitars are undervalued. They don't shimmer...good thing for jazz where notes just need to get out of the way. Good choice.
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Thanks for the suggestions! I realise that acoustic archtops don't have the traditional jazz tone, but at least they're a bit closer than flattops usually are. Playability is an excellent point however - regardless of how an archtop sounds I'd basically have to take whatever playability the Gretsch has. (Eastman was mentioned, but I don't think they're available in my country.) Buying a used old quality guitar is a good idea that I like a lot. It's a small market around here, and I can count the number of Ovations for sale online on one hand. None of them match the description given by Roger. What other similar guitars could I look for?
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I'm with Roger in that playability is of paramount importance but beyond that the type of guitar is only important insofar as it gets you to a specific sonic destination. Jazz guitar is open to many more sounds than many of the jazz guitarists are and there is great music being made on all sorts of guitars, including various types of acoustics. Just one example ...
Last edited by Jim Soloway; 10-09-2014 at 11:07 AM.
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My own tastes for an acoustic jazz guitar are very traditional. I love the acoustic archtop Eddie Lang, Dick McDonough, George Van Eps sound. But if one wants to go the flat-top acoustic route, a Seagull folk guitar will fill the billl nicely without breaking the bank.
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Until you get the guitar you like better, you can decrease the action on your classical guitar (if possible) and practice fingerstyle playing (which is easier on a classical) and clean barres (easier on nylon strings). Like Jim said, Romero Lubambo, Gene Bertoncini and Ralph Towner are only few of the jazz guitarists who use mostly classical nylon string guitars.
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Any guitar in this price range has similar quality issues. I've played numerous Loars of friends, and I don't think they are any worse than anything else, and probably better.
Originally Posted by absence
That Gretsch is not even remotely on the level of a Loar.
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I love playing solo jazz and practicing on my acoustic larivee (L-03, I think?)
There are so many affordable, highly playable flat top acoustics these days, like Blueridge, Eastman, The Loar, etc. Plus the afore-mentioned Seagull (Canadian, I think). A great time to be a guitar player.
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I bought a Fender Sonoran that works surprisingly well as a jazz guitar. Plugged into my Fishman Mini Loudbox, it sounds far better than one might expect for the $350 price tag. The tone isn't as sparkly and loud as many flat top acoustics and that makes it quite decent for jazz. The built in Fishman electronics sound really good and the thing is built like a tank. Action is good enough and the neck profile is decent too. I'm really happy with it. I strung it with 12's and put 14 & 18 on the top two strings to thicken up the top end a bit. It's my "take to jams & don't worry if it gets banged around a bit" guitar.
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I couldn't agree more about the Loar, as it applies to the LH650. One can't reasonably experience a jazz guitar by limiting themselves to internet gossip....too much time on the 'net. Originally Posted by campusfive
The way to buy a LH650 is to buy one used that's been properly setup, so you know what you're buying. But for an authentic jazz all carved archtop, a superb tone and playability, complete with a nitro finish, it's tough to check all of those boxes for less than $900.
2b hasn't bought a pair of '650's because they're cheap....they're simply giant killers.
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I have an inexpensive Yamaha slim line similar to what Pete Callard is playing here:
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Go to Ebay and search for "Ovation Legend" or "Ovation Balladeer." Also, check out the For Sale section at OvationFanClub.com. (Although the folks there appreciate these guitars so lowball prices are not as common.) Originally Posted by absence
Anyway, what you want to avoid with a flat top for jazz is sustain, shimmer, overtones, and the wide dynamic range (deep bass, high treble) that they often exhibit. Acoustic archtops have less sustain, more fundamental, more punch, and more midrange focus - all as a general rule, of course. Those are the qualities that make an acoustic guitar work well for jazz.
Ovations tend to sound a bit like acoustic archtops, ironically enough, which of course makes them fodder for much derision among traditional flat top aficionados. Not that anyone ever makes that connection of course. But as an acoustic archtop fan myself, who also had a long run exploring Ovations, it's a very valid comparison.
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Okay, I found a video I recorded several years ago with an Adamas (high end Ovation). The sound is probably 75% plugged in, but you can hear the guitar acoustically as well and draw conclusions from there. Man, now I have GAS...
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The Eastman AR610 can be ordered with a pickup in the bridge, although it is not mentioned on their website. I have an AR605 (designated AR605e) that has such an electronics package. It is by far the best sounding acoustic guitar I have heard, plugged in. No annoying piezo sounds at all. You should be able to source one and have it sent to you.
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For those reasons, I really love my little Martin 00-15M. The smaller guitars, like the 00s, have a tighter dynamic range. The martin is not cheap, but other small flattops like the Seagull Entourage Grand guitars are great at about US$350. I have an Epiphone EL-00 that I only paid $150 for used as my knock around guitar. I replaced the plastic nut and saddle myself with bone for about $30. It sounds okay--not great--but if something happened to it, I wouldn't be broken up. Originally Posted by rpguitar
The smaller guitars have the advantage of being easy to travel with.
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maybe get a vintage hofner
they're cheap, I got a one for £200
then spent out on a refret and setup
nice (loud) guitar now
fat neck , pretty too
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You may very well want to look into Godins offerings. While they are laminated, they are actually pretty affordable. Some older acoustic archtops also creep up now and again in good condition at a decent price.
It really depends on what your budget is. I should note, if it's around $1000, the guild savoy and peerless monarch are both very good choices. I have played both, they hold up as decent acoustics. Eastmans and Yunzhis are also popular and can be found for decent prices in that range. I have not played either, so I will refrain from commenting.
But if it's around $300-500, look for a used godin archtop. I have played one. It is passible as a starter acoustic archtop.
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theres a ton of new cheap flat-tops
out there , tempting .... hmmmm
but no ....
and at least you can get the intonation
right on an archtop !
is it me or is the intonation on all flat tops
out of whack on the 6th string ?
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A whole bunch of influential jazz guitarists embraced the flat top guitar when it came to playing acoustically. I consider them more versatile than an acoustic archtop or classical for modern stuff. Consider...
Pat Metheny
John Scofield
Bill Frisell
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
John Abercrombie
John Mclaughlin
Al Di Meola
Lee Ritenour
many more...
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Quite a few suggestions here, thanks! I'll try to summarise:
First of all, I live in a small European country. There are lots of nice guitars in the USA on E-bay, but shipping one here seems to cost around $200. There are no stores (online or brick and mortar) that carry guitars like Loar or Eastman, so they too would have to be ordered internationally. Ordering from other European countries is somewhat less expensive than from the USA. Regardless of where I order from, I won't have the opportunity to try a guitar before buying it. I would have to rely solely on "internet gossip", which 2b suggests isn't the best idea.
Some guitars with pickups have been mentioned. I don't MIND if there are pickups, but the instrument will have to sound good acoustically, because that's the only way it will be used. It's not just a matter of volume - new "semi acoustic" archtops like Ibanez Artcore (even full-depth models) sound tinny and unpleasant without amp, but I have no idea how vintage models with pickups, like the Epiphone Joe Pass, compare.
While vintage and/or acoustic archtops are rare around here, there's no shortage of flattops. Roger's video with the Ovation is very nice, and cosmic gumbo's list of flattop players is also convincing. I guess the challenge is finding one with somewhat low sustain, shimmer, overtones, and dynamic range. Ovation has been mentioned (new models are easier to get by here than vintage ones, are they good?), are there others? Now that I know what to listen for and ask about, I'll take another round at a few local shops too.
In short: I'd love an archtop, but due to low local availability and high shipping costs, there's not much that will fit inside my (slightly stretchable) $5-600 budget unless I gamble on E-bay. If I can find a flattop with good playability and jazz-friendly sound instead, that would be just fine.
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