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I started playing electric again after about 15 years. I wouldn't even bother if people where I live where into acoustic jazz like Django. Have to play murkan' jazz where I am. Acoustic jazz is too "foreign" in these parts.
I still reach for my Gitane first just in case I meet people that are hip. That's not likely though.Last edited by Stevebol; 11-27-2011 at 06:33 PM. Reason: more info
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11-27-2011 06:31 PM
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Just when I thought I had all my more immediate questions answered, this came up.
Is there such a thing as a Jazz acoustic guitar? And to clarify, I mean is there a certain wood/construction combination that is widely accepted and sought out for use in playing Jazz, especially the more darker sounding traditional type Jazz sound that electric guitars such as the ES-175 cover?
Thanks for your replies in advance.
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You need to be more specific.
Do you mean acoustic arch tops or acoustic flat tops??
When I have some money together, I am thinking of putting a down payment down on an Eric Solomon acoustic arch top that has some of the properties of a flat top. A user here has one, and it sounded incredible.
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As we say, you can play jazz on anything. A nicely voiced guitar for a starter, don't get weighed down by construction, wood, torsional stability etc. Something that feels good and sounds good.
The clip below has Mr Kenny Burrell showing what he can do with a flat top acoustic guitar and a microphone. at 2.45ish you get a good look at the strings he's using which look like flats to me.
Of course the 'Superman' quick change to the Gibbo Archtop is way nice too
Hope this helps.Last edited by jazzbow; 03-03-2012 at 06:06 AM.
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First, I think this "dark jazz tone" is a myth. A "jazz tone" can be Jim Halls or Pat Methenys dark tone or it can be Grant Greens almost ice pick bright tone - and everything in between.
Second, IF we should nominate such a thing as a "classic jazz tone" for acoustic jazz guitar, it must be the sound of the acoustic archtop as it was in the big band era. Back then guitarists poted for a brighter tone with lots of mid range and a good deal of attack sound (pick noise) - because they had to to project and not be drowned out by the rest of the big band. It was not the sweetest sound for a quiet solo setting - they actually sounded slightly metallic at times. But if the guitar was unaudible, the band leader could just as well have sent the guitarist home and pocketed his salary himself.
However, with todays much more varied use of the guitar and the ever present sophisticated miking and amplification techniques, bare necessity doesn't call for a specific kind of tone. It up to the situation and the preference of the player. Jazz is - almost per difinition - an anarcistic and freedom seeking kind of music. We should not let us be held back by what is "correct" og generally accepted. When jazz first began to be played in New Orleans, it was played on whatever instruments were available cheaply - which often happened to be old wind instruments from the by then disbanded army bands of the civil war. And none of the style pioneers of jazz (say, Young, Parker, Davis, Coltrane) had tones which were readily accepted.
As for building techniques, there are general tendencies (such as X-bracing vs. parallel bracing etc.), but there are more guitar builders than ever these days and they experiment a lot. There are so many variables and I figure that one can tweak these in so many ways that a luthier can arrive at the same kind of tone in many different ways - and can also vary the tone a lot with the same basic building technique. Bob Benedetto once built a guitar from ordinary construction wood from the local timber supply (the top was made of knot ridden pine) to prove that expensive tone woods was not that important. Reportedly, that guitar didn't sund much different from his most expensive instruments made from AAAA+++ grade woods.
So what's left at the end of the day: Try out as many guitars you can and then choose the one which pleases YOU the most within your budget. After that you can begin the final bending it to you will with setup, strings, pick choise, picking technique etc. These factors can make a huge difference.
If you will be playing for others, remember that the guitar sounds different when heard from just a few meters away than it does to the player. Usually it means that the guitar sounds brighter and more "harsh" to the player than to the audience. It the guitar sounds mellow and pleasing to the guitarist, it may lack clarity and projection when heard from the audience position.
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I have seen the clip before and love it. It's amazing how much he still sounds like himself on that flattop. It's not a lot differerent from the sound of his beloved Super 400 through a Twin Reverb. I think it underlines my point above, that setup, strings, picks, playing techinique can make a big difference - bigger than the guitar itself.
Originally Posted by jazzbow
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A lot of the modern guys play some flat top jazz from time to time, but they don't go for a dark tone.
All the darkness in a tone is pickups and amp. Archtops are bright sounding naturally.
So a 175 only has a dark tone because of the amplification.
I think the key in finding a flattop that will work for jazz is a balanced output. I shy away from dreds and their big midrange scoop for that reason, I like somewhat smaller sized bodies for acoustic jazz playing...
And then of course...the acoustic archtop...once you play one of those, well...
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Dan Koentopp makes some fine ones ...
Koentopp Guitars
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Earl Klugh does quite nicely with his nylon strung guitars.
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Yes Kreisberg and Lund have some interesting takes on standards with flat tops. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I've always dug Jerry! Guild D-40 with Bill Lawrence soundhole pickup (same guitar Metheny had bolted to a stand in the late 70's - I wonder if it's a Kansas thing?)
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I know this is a slight derail from the "acoustic" thing, but how does one define "jazz tone", whether it's electric or acoustic?
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I don't know if this will help or not, but I recently spent a lot of time trying out flat top acoustic guitars, paying close attention to how different wood combinations sound. I ended up deciding to buy a Taylor, but within that product line, for me a western red cedar top had a nice, mellow, fat, jazzy, somewhat darker sound, without getting muddy in the bottom. I also went with their smaller GC-size body with a cutaway and onboard electronics.
I also learned that maple sounds pretty bright if you like that. Mahogany bodies sound a little darker overall. The combination of top and back woods has a tremendous effect on the sound.
A big decision is choosing to go either steel string or nylon. You might as well make that decision first and then focus your search exclusively on one or the other. Nylon necks, by the way, tend to be designed more for classical guitarists rather than jazz, I found. I wanted an acoustic fretboard that is as similar as possible to a jazz neck.
By the way, Taylor has some sound graphs on their website for various types of tonewoods.....you might want to check that out.
One thing to watch out for with any acoustic, I found, is whether or not the thing sounds consistent in volume and tone quality all over the fretboard on all six strings, while using a consistent attack. Some don't. When you're used to playing electric, it isn't as crucial (although I don't ignore it either way) cause you fix it with pickup adjustments, tone settings, etc.
I've really never owned a good acoustic, so coming from almost exclusively playing jazz hollow or semi-hollow electrics, I didn't want to make a big leap to some huge dreadnought type flat top or a big, fat, flat neck/fretboard. The new acoustic is ordered and due in around the middle of this month.
Good luck with your search.
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I am continually amazed at the jazzy tone I get from my Taylor Mini GS, both plugged in or not.
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I'm glad to "hear" that! My comments about flat top acoustics and their tones were meant in a relative sense. Some really are darker/fatter/jazzier sounding than others, relative to other acoustics. Relative to hollow/semi jazz electrics, though, flat tops of course all sound brighter. Originally Posted by bborzell
I found that some flat top steel stringed acoustics are so bright as to sound thin, twangy, tinny, almost irritating to my half-shot ears!
My goal was to find an acoustic wood combination that was relatively warm and dark to begin with, and then take it from there when plugged in.Last edited by Section Player; 03-03-2012 at 01:26 PM.
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It's my understanding that the bracing on the inside and the arch of the soundboard determine how the different strings blend together. There's the typical f-hole archtop sound and there's the typical dreadnought sound. There are also variations in between. A gypsy jazz guitar might be a good example of a variation.
The typical jazz sound is such that the notes do not blend together on an archtop and produce a kind of 'chorusing' sound the way they would on a regular dreadnought. To my ears the archtop is closer to a piano sound.
Also, archtops don't seem to have strong sub-sonics(very low frequencies) the way many dreads do.
Of course all this means nothing in a way because jazz can be played on anything.
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^^^
I don't know where a nylon string classical would fit into this. The strings are made of very different material and I don't know the differences in construction from other guitars off-hand.
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I often wondered how the tone was on an archtop with a round soundhole. Without the flat top bracing, I'm sure it doesn't sound like a flat top, and without f holes, it must project a different tone than a traditional archtop. Prior to the Gibson L5, the Gibson L1, L2, L3, And L4 guitars had round soundholes, and other brands had their copies of this style.
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Here's a video of Julian Lage testing an oval-hole archtop acoustic and an f-hole archtop acoustic made by the same luthier. It's a decent (and enjoyable!) comparative example: Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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In most of the early jazz recordings the guitar appears to have been mainly used for comping,especially the big band era. The pick ups on the earlier acoustics seem to have been added so the solos could be heard.Django seems to have been the exception with his gypsy jazz guitars.
IMHO most flattop acoustics could be used for comping as long as they don't have heavy overtones. For chord melodies I like the sound of the eastman archtops. For lead solos smaller bodies sound better at least to my ears.I love what Eric Skye does with his Santa Cruz 00 !
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I apologize for the contradictory opinion, we all hear things differently... But while Mr. Skye is doing some amazing technical playing that I may never be able to achieve, that sound is like listening to two minutes of fingernails on a chalkboard. Very tinny and blatty. I can't tell if it's the guitar or how he's playing it (combination?). Maybe it's just the auditorium or the way it was recorded.
I've listened to countless recordings of flat-top acoustics on jazz out of curiosity, and some sound very jazzy while others sound country no matter what is being played on them.
Most acoustic archtops seem to sound fairly dry and mid-rangey-to-bright to me. In the flat-top world the Taylor GA series seems to come the closest to that sound so far (again, just based on what I hear as "jazzy").Last edited by Retroman1969; 03-04-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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I wanted a traditional, acoustic jazz guitar for most of my life, and finally had the means to be able to order one last year. I took delivery about a month ago, and can relate my experience, which may help the OP.
Fortunately, the luthier I chose is fairly close to me, and I was able to play his guitars before making my decision on builders. I was looking for a traditional looking and sounding instrument, so I chose maple sides and back and spruce top. I originally thought an Adirondack spruce top would be a good choice, but my luthier talked me into German spruce, and European maple. The European woods have different tonal colorings than others, and, according to my luthier, will produce a mellower, and more jazz-like sound.
I also had the opportunity to play a 17" archtop with a "sinker" redwood top and salvaged claro walunt back and sides. This was a VERY impressive guitar. It had a nice, alternative tone to a traditional maple/spruce guitar; much more "open" sounding. I may have to order one of these guitars, as it models many of the characteristics of a nice flat top guitar.
Lastly, when I ordered my maple/spruce guitar, Jim Murphy and I talked about it being a striclty acoustic instrument, He carved a larger interior chamber on this guitar, and put a larger than normal arch and recurve in the back. I can tell you that the guitar feels alive in my hands, and resonates with each note played. It has great note separation, and beautiful tone up the neck.
I am very happy I went with an acoustic jazz guitar, and I can easily mic the guitarfor those settings which require more volume.
I hope this helps.
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I have to agree, neither the sound of the guitar or the performance are that impressive. He's playing the vamp and the melody together, but missing a fair number of notes; when he comes to the "solo" part, he's mainly just pounding out the rhythm in the simplest way, using different chord voicings. Flattop soloists seem to tolerate a lot of spiky hard-picked notes, but its a sound I would strive to avoid when playing acoustic. Originally Posted by Retroman1969
Somewhat off-topic, but for an impressive solo on Take Five, look here:
Last edited by cmajor9; 03-04-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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Bob Benedetto makes several models of acoustic archtops as well as a gypsy style guitar.
www.benedettoguitars.com
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If we're talking about jazz on flat-top steel string acoustics, I can only offer that I'm lucking to have two Martins (small body 00-21, and a dreadnaught D-28), and one Gibson (a Roy Smeck Stage Deluxe reissue, 12-fret slope shoulder dread).
To me, the Gibson is voiced much better for jazz. It's a 12-fret, which seems to soften and sweeten and round out the tone a bit, and the body is deeper than a typical dread. And maybe the mid-range is slightly boosted, compared to the Martins? Or maybe the Martin overtones are too shimmery and wash out jazzy four note chords...I don't know.
Eric Skye's guitar is a Santa Cruz 00, probably his signature model, and it's voiced, to my ears, more like a Martin. I think he's a fine player, and it's a fine and welcome voice for jazz, imho, but not the tone I would go for on a steel string, speaking just for myself and my interests. I like Kenny Burrell's tone upthread much better.
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