Buscarino and Benedetto

**fumblefingers** · 02-21-2012, 08:52 AM

Does anyone here have one of the following:

1. Buscarino Virtuoso
2. Buscarino Monarch

or have you played one extensively, or have a good friend who has one?

If so, can you compare these to the Benedetto Cremona and Manhattan/Fratello models? In terms of playability, feel, and sound, that is.

Thanks.

**kris** · 02-21-2012, 09:03 AM

Expensive toys.

**Jazzman301** · 02-21-2012, 09:14 AM

Those don't seem like the kind of instrument you buy without playing one first and MANY conversations with the builder. An investment of $20,000-$30,000 is not the kind of investmend anyone should be making in an instrument without having first played one. If you are truly considering a purchase give Bob or Howard Paul a call over at Benedetto and I am sure they will be more than happy to discuss what your needs are and if those instruments will meet those needs.

'Mike

**fumblefingers** · 02-22-2012, 02:56 AM

sure, i've corresponded with Bob, Cindy, and Howard before.

I'm a Benedetto and Buscarino customer already - just not in terms of a Virtuoso or Cremona.

so, my question stands.

thanks.

**Jazzman301** · 02-22-2012, 09:22 AM

I don't want to sound like a jerkface but I feel Like Bob and Howard would be able to tell you way more about their guitar than any of us here. Also I imagine it will be a challenge to find many people with a $30k guitar on here.
Also I would think that anyone who owns a $30k guitar will tell you how much they love it...and for $30K they should.

'Mike

**fumblefingers** · 02-22-2012, 10:27 PM

are you kidding? have you ever heard of something called the customers voice? or a customer survey? or a customer satisfaction rating?

there is a time to talk to the salesperson and there is a time to talk to customers.

i'm going to wait and see if anyone steps up. since you don't own one or seem to know anyone who does, i'll just say thanks for your input up to here and would appreciate it if you act as a spectator on this one.

thanks again.

**Jazzman301** · 02-22-2012, 11:09 PM

No I dont own either BUT I have good friend who owns a Benedetto Cremona that I have had occassion to play and in fact baby sat the guitar for a few months while he was away.

I again say that you will not find ANYONE who spends 30K on a guitar tell you yeah I did not like it...ego alone would prevent most from admitting to making such a mistake.

What do you want to know specific? Its an AMAZING sounding instrument with a fit and finish that is the very definition of superior craftsmenship. A Cremona defines excellence in construction, tone,and playability.

But I can spectate...

'Mike

**fumblefingers** · 02-23-2012, 02:00 AM

ok, great. a few questions.

when was it made?

how would you compare it to a Manhattan?

have you ever played a Buscarino Virtuoso or Monarch, and how did the Cremona compare to them?

thanks.

**oldane** · 02-23-2012, 05:57 AM

I have a 15 years old Fratello which I ordered directly from Bob when he had his shop in Pensylvania. (No, they didn't cost 30K at that time).

Back then all his instruments were hand made by himself and maybe an appretice, who was in the shop at the given time. It was my impression that all his instruments was intended to play and sound the same, and they were built to the same measurements and according to the same principles. What separated the various models (at various price levels) was the ornamentation and the grade of wood used. According to Bob himself, that shouldn't mean any difference to sound and playability, provided the luthier knows how to make the most of a given piece of wood.

To prove that point, Bob actually built a guitar from cheap knot ridden pine and maple intended for construction use which he bought at the local timber supply. In his book Bob stressed that this guitar - despite the semingly obvious - played and sounded as good as the most expensive Cremona models.

Of couse the situation is different now with the much greater variaty of instruments in his range. But still I figure that there should not be any intended difference in sound and playability between say a Fratello and a Manhattan or a Cremona. If a difference can be detected, it's my guess that it is a difference between individual instruments and not between models.

**Jazzman301** · 02-23-2012, 10:21 AM

I am not sure of the build year but I will find out for you.

'Mike

**fumblefingers** · 02-23-2012, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by oldane

I have a 15 years old Fratello which I ordered directly from Bob when he had his shop in Pensylvania. (No, they didn't cost 30K at that time).

Back then all his instruments were hand made by himself and maybe an appretice, who was in the shop at the given time. It was my impression that all his instruments was intended to play and sound the same, and they were built to the same measurements and according to the same principles. What separated the various models (at various price levels) was the ornamentation and the grade of wood used. According to Bob himself, that shouldn't mean any difference to sound and playability, provided the luthier knows how to make the most of a given piece of wood.

To prove that point, Bob actually built a guitar from cheap knot ridden pine and maple intended for construction use which he bought at the local timber supply. In his book Bob stressed that this guitar - despite the semingly obvious - played and sounded as good as the most expensive Cremona models.

Of couse the situation is different now with the much greater variaty of instruments in his range. But still I figure that there should not be any intended difference in sound and playability between say a Fratello and a Manhattan or a Cremona. If a difference can be detected, it's my guess that it is a difference between individual instruments and not between models.

yes, i have see that pine guitar in person if memory serves. its on his website now, in a dated picture of Bucky P playing it while sitting next to Bob and Cindy's then teenage daughter.

i wonder if the Cremona is louder (more resonant) than the Manhattan and Fratello. the online description seems to suggest that. but i guess i could call and find out when ready. (and i'm not ready).

**stevedenver** · 02-25-2012, 11:54 AM

i have played a monarch for about two hours
a fine instrument and modern voice-clear, articualte, great sustain, mine had a nice side port-and light!

havent played a benny

i thought that the price of the insturemnt was merited, but i gave careful thought to value, subjective of course,

the price was equivalent to two slighty used L5-s , or a super 400 and a re-issue 34 L5-etc

it was just a little 'too many eggs in one basket for me'

and while i appreciate fine instruments, i tend to gravitate to more subtle and utilitarian -i just feel more confortable when n i show up with an instrument that doesnt imply id better be a guitar god

simply a superb instrument -beautiful, great foreward balanced voice, nice neck (more like the heavier feel of an accoustic vs electric to me-closest thing i can think of is a guild neck-substantial but not chunky

i was very very impressed with the sound but not blown away-had i been i probably would have done something stupid

**Jabberwocky** · 02-25-2012, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by stevedenver

i have played a monarch.....
i thought that the price of the insturemnt was merited, but i gave careful thought to value, subjective of course,

the price was equivalent to two slighty used L5-s , or a super 400 and a re-issue 34 L5-etc

....

Whoever inherits my guitars will have a far easier time selling off two slightly used Gibson L5s or a Super 400 and a 1934 L5 Reissue than a Buscarino Monarch. And get a good return on my investment. I am not so sure about these "boutique" guitars unless it is a John Monteleone.

Shallow, I know, but that's how I look at it. Besides, an L5 or a Super 400 of any vintage really warms up the cockles of my heart; they are the sound of jazz, in my book. They are my Holy Grail.

**fumblefingers** · 02-25-2012, 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Whoever inherits my guitars will have a far easier time selling off two slightly used Gibson L5s or a Super 400 and a 1934 L5 Reissue than a Buscarino Monarch. And get a good return on my investment. I am not so sure about these "boutique" guitars unless it is a John Monteleone.

Shallow, I know, but that's how I look at it. Besides, an L5 or a Super 400 of any vintage really warms up the cockles of my heart; they are the sound of jazz, in my book. They are my Holy Grail.

you are "not sure about them except for a Montelleone"? because of what? resale? build quality? art?

regarding resale, i would think that a used Benedetto Manhattan or Fratello would sell pretty fast. they seem to if the price is right. Buscarino Monarchs and Virtuosos tend to sell a little more slowly than Benedettos (at least from my very unscientific observations). i have never see a used Montelleone for sale.

today, a new Benedetto is generally considered to be superior to a new Gibson archtop. i own two very comparable models (Guild/Benedetto and a Gibson. The Gibby was more pricey). the Gibson is truly a great guitar, yet the Benedetto sets itself apart.

it sounds like you would have thought it to be the other way around.

**Jabberwocky** · 02-25-2012, 02:29 PM

No point belaboring it.

**stevedenver** · 02-25-2012, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Whoever inherits my guitars will have a far easier time selling off two slightly used Gibson L5s or a Super 400 and a 1934 L5 Reissue than a Buscarino Monarch. And get a good return on my investment. I am not so sure about these "boutique" guitars unless it is a John Monteleone.

Shallow, I know, but that's how I look at it. Besides, an L5 or a Super 400 of any vintage really warms up the cockles of my heart; they are the sound of jazz, in my book. They are my Holy Grail.

thats the truth
a gibson, is money in the bank, period-
and so long as retail goes up, older insturemtns will too, especially with the superior woods they have

the inherent value has nothing to do with extrinsic value
i too had the same reservation, especially when you start getting into over 3-4K-

my triggs, which i love, i know is likely to be a bear (or should i say a dog) should i ever wish to sell it-and but for the Blue Guitar book, he doesnt have the same notoriety of buscarino or benny in the jazz world

montellone.....well thats only a dream-plus he never seems to get those sound holes round.....

**fumblefingers** · 02-25-2012, 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

No point belaboring it.

good point. there's no point belaboring a point, if it's a bad point.

i do know about Benedetto. if you negotiate a fair price for the right model (Manhattan or Cremona) then its a good investment.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-25-2012, 11:16 PM

Although resale value might be important if I was shopiing for a 30k guitar it wouldn't be my main concern.

**Jabberwocky** · 02-26-2012, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

good point. there's no point belaboring a point, if it's a bad point.

i do know about Benedetto. if you negotiate a fair price for the right model (Manhattan or Cremona) then its a good investment.

That's kind of infra dig, isn't it? I deleted it because I had a feeling you would want to drag it on no matter what was written. That didn't stop you. Knock yourself out.

**PTChristopher** · 02-26-2012, 10:40 AM

JabberW,

Your reasoning for dropping it in a sensible, smug-free manner is very clear and admired/appreciated.

Chris

**Jabberwocky** · 02-26-2012, 11:03 AM

Thank you, Chris. I have had my fair share of being a jerk myself. But I am learning as I go along. Hope not to wear out the welcome mat here. Please bear with me.

**PTChristopher** · 02-26-2012, 11:08 AM

Not at all.

We all have our moments here or elsewhere. I agree that when things get web-smug-dopey a little step back seems to be the way to go.

Sometimes it may not inspire admirably gracious response - doesn't make it a bad move though.

**jorgemg1984** · 02-26-2012, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Thank you, Chris. I have had my fair share of being a jerk myself. But I am learning as I go along. Hope not to wear out the welcome mat here. Please bear with me.

I feel exactly the same.

**Jabberwocky** · 02-26-2012, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I feel exactly the same.

Thank you all. It's all good. Back to regular programming.

**fumblefingers** · 02-26-2012, 10:29 PM

i'm a big gibson guy myself. 9 great guitars from them so far...

but i thought that you dismissively cast off two of the world's greatest (and well established, reputation wise) builders in a back-handed manner. i thought that was a bit rash. to imply that Montelleone is the only luthier besides Gibson that makes fine jazz guitars that are worth buying.... speaks for itself. there are many. Benedetto is at or near the top of the list.