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Yea.. you can't get there from here. Unless you use a microphone and most of us aren't going to go to that much trouble.
Choices:
K&K archtop - designed to be exactly under the bridge inside the guitar. On archtops, bridges move when you change string gauges, humidity levels, et al. Even when perfectly placed need lots of EQ just to sound OK.
K&K Definity - really easy and cheap. Lots of EQ to sound a little less than OK.
Flat top magnetic pickups - Require an oval hole archtop
Piezo - thought these were banned in the Geneva Conventions
Armstrong 12 pole - great pickup and you can get a nice woody sound. Not quite acoustic though.
Some use a regular pickup mixed with something like the K&K to open it up to creep a bit closer to acoustic. Strings, pick, proper acoustic amplification, playing style all matter quite a bit to what the audience gets out of it. But while everything is a compromise, sometimes compromises sound pretty good.
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OK.. all that being said, has anyone experimented with a Tone Dexter yet?
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05-22-2018 07:05 PM
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I still advocate a set of the K&K Big Twin mounted under each of the bridge feet using super glue gel on the inside of the top, this gives maximum volume and tone, Sounds great without a pre amp too. The large size allows for plenty of bridge moving for gauge changes without losing tone. These pickups are also great for cellos because of the un colored sound.
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Just for those not so familiar with the K&K line.. a 'Big Twin' and 'Pure Archtop' are not the same pickup. Actually they don't have one called 'Pure Archtop' any more but customer service told me it's identical to the 'Pure Bass'. Which of course is different than the 'Double Big Twin' for jazz bass.
I've tried the Pure Archtop on two guitars and wasn't happy with them. Too many variables so don't know if it's the design, the installation, thickness of the top.. don't know. I do know it's hard to find a tech to do a good job perfectly placing the transducers and one day I may take another crack at it putting them in myself.
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Hey Spook410, I also got that advice from the folks at K&K to use the Pure Bass. The guy I spoke with said it is actually the same transducer on the Pure Bass as on the old Pure Archtop. I installed them on my 5th Avenue, but could never get a sound I could use, even with one of K&Ks best preamps. I use the Pure Minis on my flattops and love them. I was really disappointed in the archtop sound and removed them right away.
K&K recommends the Definity, but I never could get that to sound right either. Even though it's super thin, I also thought wedging it under the bridge affected the acoustic sound to some degree. Bummers!
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The Krivo pickups do not sound exactly like a floating pickup because they are designed to pick up vibrations from the sound board.... Much more acoustic.
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Tim Lerch's demo is probably the most relevant.
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The main thing wrong with the old K&K archtop system was the pickup placement just inside the f holes on the bridge side. I did this once and it never sounded right but is easy to reach. figuring out a way to get them further in under the feet of the bridge is well worth the trouble.
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You may be right, Cavalier. The only problem is getting the transducers out again after placing them under the bridge feet if you didn't like them. It's hard enough when they're placed right next to the hole.
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I really like Lerch's video of the Krivo. Maybe the new archtop version would be worth a go. Thanks, Christianm77.
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I think the archtop version has a bit more of a modern jazz tone to it...
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Djangobucker won’t fit if you have a pick guard otoh.
But if you order a Krivo you’ll be dealing with the man direct so you can put any questions his way. It’s not a corporate faceless operation.
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Sorry to resurrect the thread, but rather than starting the 4th or 5th thread on the subject, might as well start from this platform.
I have been using the AudioTechnica Pro70 and, since I don’t have (yet) an acoustic amp, plugging into the PAs we’d find in rehearsal rooms… now we’ll be in a room without PA for a while and I’ll need an acoustic amp.
Anyway: even with a PA and monitors quite far from me, I’ve had feedback and black looks from other bandmembers – tolerance is really very low in the band. I know I should experiment a bit to find the right geometry, mic placement etc but I basically NEVER manage to do that. Can’t do that at home (neighbours + it would not be a “real life” situation), and the room for rehearsal is usually open just 30 mins before and when I get there there are ALREADY bandmembers who’ll get pissed if there is feedback…
I’ll keep trying but I wanted to know if anyone used a Schertler Basik (or that kind of pickup) with any success:
Schertler Group - Pickups - Basik Pro
I am already using their putty to mount my DeArmonds, and I am ready to compromise a bit on the acoustic sound, plus I thought that this sounded plenty good enough for me (I believe it was done using the much-maligned K&K Definity?):
Do you think it could sound good and give me significantly more resistance to feedback?
OTOH I want to have some acoustic solution because even though I have the best conceivable electric/magnetic pickup (a DeArmond rhythm chief) I really have trouble comping with it, even following all the advice usefully provided by luminaries such as Jon Stout and James Chirillo. That advice – rolling back the volume, cutting the bass, using small shapes – really improves things a lot but I still can’t feel the rhythm decently with an electric sound if that makes sense. So I’d rather have an “average” acoustic tone without feedback.
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That video looks vaguely familiar.
It's all really context dependent bro. I know I have commented loads, but there's a lot of things to consider.
Lets take a couple of modern masters of swing guitar, Matt Munisteri and James Chirillo. As you know there's a regular gig at the Ear Inn in NYC. I've been in that room, and I would say it's broadly similar to a lot of the trad/dixie/swing gigs I do here in Blighty, small room, no drums, chatting audience in the dining area (only obviously, a lot, y'know, better.) If anything the audience is quieter and more respectful because it's a well known gig on the NYC trad circuit.
Well, for this they use floating pickup equipped archtop guitars with an amp.
Chirillo's Fender Princeton (?) is clearly visible.
These guys have been through all of this shit. They know that life is a compromise.
OTOH, you are at a purpose built concert hall. You are playing a Basie tribute show with the Lincoln Centre Jazz Orchestra. Things are going to get done RIGHT.
Soooooo.... I might have been given wrong info here, but as I have been told by someone who generally knows their shit, the concept with the LCJO live sound is reinforcement, not replacement. Condensor mikes are placed as overheads for the whole band, which balances acoustically, and then that sound gets piped to the PA around the room, where it won't create f/b problems, and will discreetly lift the sound of the band in such away that everyone can hear eveything.
Similarly - I went to see Punch Brothers at the Barbican in London. The Barbican, like many London concert venues is a bit problematic with amplified sound. The PB gathered around a Neumann U87, old school bluegrass style, and came in and out for solos - and the bass was the only thing amplified otherwise. The best amplified sound I've heard in there.
They also did the last 2 songs completely acoustic, and were perfectly audible (I was glad they use the mike though, because the sound was detailed and clear.)
I'd love to do a band like that, but I can well imagine the incredulity of the sound engineers I generally deal with.
Many gigs are somewhere in between. What's the vibe? Experience advises best. The room is bad sounding, the room is good sounding. The sound engineer is in a Slayer T-shirt, or is a passionate lindyhopper who also plays the guitar.
In the first case - and I don't want to stereotype Slayer fans, but this has been my experience with rock guys - if it doesn't plug in they WON'T understand it, by which I mean, they WILL NOT even if they COULD. They have never listened to acoustic live music or jazz record in their life. Make it easy for them. Electric through an amp, pref with a DI out. You are going to have other things to worry about anyway, because the drummer is going to have a lengthy and heated discussion about the level of the kick drum. Trust me, your problems are the least of the band's live sound worries.
In the second case - they will set up a tight pattern condensor mike - electret pencil type - just right, and everything will sound clear, natural and glorious. I like the boom mike because you can work it for solo/rhythm level too...
Another scenario. You are the bandleader, or have an understanding bandleader (hah!) and you can sound check the guitar for as long as you like.
I worked with a Pro70 on my GJ guitar for a few years. It worked well, but was never usable with my Loar. The K&K, similarly always seemed better on my GJ box. Dunno why. I hate wires on the whole, I am a clumsy doofus, it's a recipe for mayhem. A jack to jack cable is bad enough.
So I think, have a few options. A guitar bag can reasonably contain a mike - lav or boom - and a Krivo type stick on mag pickup - I think that would see you through a lot of eventualities.
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Also, here's an idea. Try your guitar through not an acoustic amp, but a small PA unit. I think a lot of acoustic amps are designed around making flattop guitars with piezos sound great. You plug a $200 guitar into an AER and get a great sound...
Certainly my AER howls like a bitch on heat as soon as it goes anyway near a Pro 70 or a DPA. When I used a Pro 70 I was using a very small ZT Lunchbox Acoustic. The AER does not get on with that type of thing.
Maybe that's bollocks, but I noticed a difference..
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Lastly, how you set you amp. Having a volume pedal - or actually now I prefer a clean boost - is very helpful. You want to get the guitar to a point where you can play rhythm with a good attack but not get too much electric 'bassy' sound. I find if I set it a notch or two lower than I would for modern, it works great, and you can use the pedal to bring your level up for soloing if you need it.
Furthermore, focus most of your energy into the middle strings when strumming. Generally a good rule....
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My free advice, for what it's worth, which is probably less than you paid: Forget the acoustic sound, it's more trouble than it's worth. Use the DeArmond through whatever amplification system you have. Nobody else will notice or care. Keep the volume back on the guitar, and follow Christian's advice above. Also the Chirillo video. Acoustic guitar is only relevant in very limited scenarios these days. Even the horns, drums, bass, and piano are usually amplified. Trying to use a microphone on an archtop is more grief and woe than I'm willing to deal with.
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Condenser clip on with goose neck.
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Hi BB, thanks for chiming in.
This is what I have too, and my mic placement is very similar, but:
- I am probably not yet very good at setting it up because my sound is sometimes good sometimes quite bad (unfortunately we’ve had a nomad life so never twice the same equipment) and
- I am probably abysmal at mic and speaker placement because I’ve had some feedback and members of the band will likely kick me out if it goes on like this.
If you have any suggestions on both point, they’re more than welcome! I have religiously studied Jonathan Stout’s advice, and will probably go over it once again before I enter the rehearsal room on Wednesday.
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Jonathan's advice to always use a cut-off switch between mic and amp is golden.
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Is that a DPA?
Originally Posted by BBGuitar
Condenser clip on with goose neck.
Do you gig that set up - and if so what type of gigs are you playing and what kind of amplification gear? Cheers
(The lav dream is not totally dead..)
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Yeah, I know a cellist who uses a DPA mic and she could really do with one. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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For my Dupont DM-50 gypsy guitar, I finally settled on a 2 pickup solution through a Fishman Loudbox Artist amp. There is a Bigtone piezo in the bridge and I have installed a K&K Definity under the bass side of the bridge, half under the bridge foot, the other half sticking out towards the back of the guitar.
The Bigtone goes into a K&K Pure Sound preamp -- which I prefer to the Baggs ParaDI. On the amp, I turn the bass and treble all the way down, and pull the bass down to about 11:00. On the preamp, I also pull down the mid to about 9:00, the treble to about 10:00 and the bass to about 11:00.
The K&K goes straight into the amp, where I turn the bass all the way down, the mids and treble to about 11:00.
I then balance the 2 channels so most of the sound is coming from the K&K, with the Bigtone filling in the bottom end and some low mids. This way, I get rid of the handling rumble from the K&K as the Bigtone doesn't have that sensitivity. I usually have the phase switch pushed in on both channels and I fiddle with the feedback controls for fine midrange adjustments depending on the room. I also have the tweeter turned about 1/2 way up.
If there is a PA, I ALWAYS use my own mic (Senheiser e609) and NEVER use the DI!!!!! If there is a good sound person, I'll also have a mic on the guitar for FOH only, NO monitors.
It sounds like a lot, but I can be setup and ready to go in 10min, which for this kind of a setup is quite speedy!
I keep a Krivo paf in my guitar gig bag as a backup, or if I need to play through an electric amp. I did a corporate gig with Krivo (he was on bass) where I used the paf on my Dupont through a Lunchbox and it was a good sound! The acoustic sound of the guitar dominated with the amp helping to support the sound and give some midrange punch.
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In my experience what worked well for my GJ guitar did not necessarily work for my archtop.
For instance the k&k definity seemed a lot tinnier and more prone to feedback. But I still use it for my GJ guitar. Sounds decent with a preamp.
I also prefer the djangobucker on my archtop over my GJ but I have a d hole so that’s prob why.
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It's a Audio Technica with the phantom power supply. I run it into a Fishman Loudbox Mini. Originally Posted by christianm77
I play in a 16 piece big band.
Over the f holes is too boomy. Behind the bridge as pictured is just right for me.
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True, archtops and GJ guitars are somewhat different beasts, but they're both bears to acoustically amplify. I think part of my point is a single amplification source isn't enough, but a dual source should work, i.e. a piezo with a mag, or a lavalier and a peizo, or a pair of mismatched piezos, etc. The sound from one fills in the holes from the other and vice versa. The Fishman amp is the missing piece of the puzzle for me. Originally Posted by christianm77
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