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The Aura system is remarkable. Unfortunately, they have not created any images for an archtop yet...
Originally Posted by fep
I'm gonna pick up a pick up the world pup sometime soon...I'll report back...now it's just a decision of what guitar to put it on...maybe I'll start a poll....
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01-20-2012 01:07 PM
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Jabberwocky,
I think it's still interesting even though I can't afford it. I'm sure there are loads of folk who will think it's worth the money and to will read this thread.
I'm still reallyl impressed by the K&K audio files I heard. sounds like a guitar to me and pretty easy to fit - also reasonable. I'm sure it must have less feedback issues than a condenser mic.
BTW - I did a test with the Audio Technica 350 clipped onto the tail piece. Put it through my PA clean. I wasn't happy at all and feedback was definitely an issue. I could use it in quiet venues but nowhere else.
Anyone know if a mini clip dynamic mic would work in theory? Given that an SM 57 doesn't sound that bad live?
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Back in 2010, someone in this forum suggested a Sony lavalier mic in a pinch. Paul, perhaps you could try rigging one up to see if it works?
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Its all about where the mic is ..........
Inside you get lots of separation (the mic only/mainly hears the guitar)
but of course you are inside a box so its not a natural sound
A Piezo sounds like a piezo (bright and string-ey)
A contact stick-on mike is picking-up the movement of the wood
which is a different thing to the sound in the air that we are
used to hearing
So a mic placed in the normal position like the DPA above will
give the natural guitar sound , but the trade-off is that it will also
pick up a bit of drums , horns bass etc.
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Its where you've put the AT mic thats the problem ........ Originally Posted by Paul Hughes
It would be well worth trying a mini gooseneck type mounting
like the DPA and the AMT S15G
Or make a Mock-up with coathanger wire to see if it gives good results
before you buy a proper goose-neck mount
I bet it will sound great with the AT mic too
It is where the mic is thats important
Trust me , I'm a Sound Engineer ...............
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This is the type of (almost) acoustic sound that I like from an archtop
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I think it is a combination of the floating pickup (I'm pretty sure it is a Benedetto pickup) and the microphones in front of the guitar.
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Pingu,
The At 350 has a mini goose neck - I think it's as standard. I micd it according to ear and some pix I saw on acousticguitar forum of a similar setup. I used to clip the same to a six string banjo and could get a great sound with very few feedback issues but then again - banjos with good rings are LOUD! For some reason the archtop though loud is just not as loud.
I remember using a professional Sony lavalier mic I borrowed from work for the weekend. I clipped it just inside the soundhole of a Yamaki flat top to make some rough recordings. I remember it still sounded amazing ..... but this was 15 years ago and the mic was very good.
Jazz 175 - I think the Frank Vignola clip is a mix of pickup, LDC on the top and pencil condenser on the neck. Still, a great listen. Really enjoyed it.
Going back to the original point, I'd love to be able to sit down with my acoustic archtop, plug it in without fear of bleed or feedback and play with no loose wires - but that's probably not going to happen so I need to work on the next closest thing.
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That's it. Massive equalization and filtering to turn an inherent bad sounding element into something different. I cannot understand a fully processed as natural. I prefer to start with a better sounding source and a minimum processing if needed. The AST intended A1.2N preamps only do a -6 dB notch in the low mids while the A1.2 is flat. So you can do the notch to taste and needs with a good external Eq. Exactly what I do with the Schaller Oysters. My next preamps will be A1.2 instead. I prefer them flat and dealing with the low mids myself better than having a fixed filter. I get better results this way. No guitar sounds equal or needs exactly the very same notch. Originally Posted by fep
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Most of my archtops are parallel braced, so I install ASTs by a tonebar. When the tonebars run right by the F-hole end there is no room for the pickup and it's certainly trickier. You need to install it in-between the tonebars which is harder to reach, but can be done. A good viol maker or repairman will do it. they install sound posts. Originally Posted by Paul Hughes
About K&K, the recommended installing positions by the F-holes notches are only recommended for ease of it. If you check the tone on different spots of the top you will easily find that a way better response can be obtained shifting the two elements closer to the bridge and by center line. Just try by yourself. I spent a whole lot of time experimenting with this in the past. I installed mine a tad south from the bridge but very close to it. In fact I get better result with one element in the centerline and right by the bridge and the other element by a tonebar. The two elements close together in the center may result an a bit too muddy sound in some guitars. Shifting one element to a stiffer area, like close to a tonebar gives some more definition and clarity. Always check the sweet spots for every guitar. Don't go blindly to the factory recommended spots. In my experience this sounds thinner, harsher and tougher. They want you to buy their pickups and simply offer you an easy DIY install option, but not the best IMO.
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Snap, great info on install and positions.
All the talk has made me wonder whether I misjudged my current K&K install, so I did some experiments and listening.
I recorded some tracks with PU direct and a large diaphragm condenser in front of the guitar. The PU tracks sounded a little thin next to the mic, but +3db at 125Hz improved it significantly. I didn't hear any of the odd resonances I mentioned above.
Next I went back to my mini PA, a Yamaha StagePas 500. The odd resonant tones are strong, making me think that even at very low volumes there are frequencies on the edge of feedback. Unfortunately boosting at 125 Hz to help the tone is in the worst range to induce feedback.
So overall: the output of the PU is pretty accurate, but the onset of feedback is even lower than I originally thought.
Snap, do you think the PU position effects feedback?
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Amplifying a resonant instrument is always a tricky thing. We have to learn to live in the verge of collapse.
In my experience feedback resistance (or feedback tendencies) strongly depends on particular guitars. They are unpredictable. A loud highly resonant guitar sometimes results having a high resistance to feedback, while another way weaker and lacking low end tend to feedback like crazy with similar setups. It's a kind of hit or miss. Though in general terms, loud resonant guitars use to be more prone to feedback... but as I said, that's not a fixed rule at all.
As always, dampening the guitar a bit when plugged uses to help a lot. Closing the F-holes with foam, rubber or whatever. Putting some cloth or similar stuff inside the guitar. Or a very good but often ignored trick. Press the back of the guitar a bit against your belly or your body depending the way you hold your guitar. Dampening the back plate noticeably reduces the low end in most archtop guitars. What is a clear no-no when playing unplugged uses to be a big help when amplified. You'll hardly ever miss that low end. Usually there's still plenty of it.
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Just some more playing for those interested.
Andreas Oberg and Frank Vignola together.
Andreas Oberg plays with a little microphone in front of the guitar.
mmmm.........
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I also tried the K&K archtop pickups on a 17' carved top guitar. I could not get them to sound good without a lot of EQ, and they were very prone to feedback. I did experiment with the placement.
They did add a nice acoustic touch when mixed in with the floating magnetic pickup on the guitar, but for me, the whole project was not worth the effort.
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I just did a temporary install of a Pick Up the World #25 Powerstrip. As you guys know, it is the easiest install and least invasive of any archtop PU. On my Trenier Magnolia I was able to do A/B comparisons with my recent K&K install.
I definitely like it better than the K&K. It gives up some treble to the K&K, but reproduces the mids and bass beautifully, with none of the high harmonic artifacts I'm getting on my K&K install. I'm probably going to replace the K&K with a permanent install of the PUTW.
I still have some other guitars I want to experiment with. So you might see future tests of the B-Band AST or Dazzo.
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I have a K&K in a g400jv 17" archtop and have had them in a few others. I play in a rockabilly/ western swing outfit at moderate volumes. The pickup didn't do much until I put it with the right amp. A fishman loud box with the built in boost was the magic combo. Only so/ so with other acoustic amps and didn't like it at all with a twin or other electric guitar amps. Wait...it does sound good with a polytone with a 15"
I have heard good things about the shadow nanomag. The thing for me is it needs to not just work and sound good it needs to be easy. Preamps, mic's that's a lot of set up and work.
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Hey all,
I just did a quick recording with a good mic and my recently installed McIntyre Acoustic Feather. You can download the .WAV files and do A/B comparisons.
The Acoustic Feather is bright, but with some EQ it sounds OK and captures a lot of the acoustic spirit of the guitar. It's a useful tool in the kit.
PU Comparison
I have some similar clips of a Pick Up the World too, and I'll post them soon.
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Good afternoon, Paul...
I know that this has been suggested before, and rejected by you, but please allow me to insist...
The Sennheiser e614 (there are other make/models that are similar...) have the 'anti-bleed' properties that you are looking for, I would think. They are extensively used for exactly your situation (concert guitar, often nylon classical, backed up by percussion...), or in close-micing a drum kit (hi-hat, avoiding bleed from snare...), and give an excellent result. I have used these, or equivalents, many times; either 'live', or for recording, and have only had to adequately place the mic to capture the source required. Unless your cajun player is a real gorilla, the bleed will be negligeable, and the fidelity of these mics is beyond reproach. I can't think of a better solution to what is, after all, a common problem for sound engineers.
Hope this helps...Last edited by Dad3353; 11-21-2012 at 04:47 PM.
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What kind of corrections were you doing with the EQ ? Originally Posted by Gilpy
I too recently installed a K&K double transducer and the the really has way too much high mids and trebles. Superb definition but harsh.
Was it your case as well ?
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Yes, that's exactly what my guitar sounded like. The pickups seemed hyper- sensitive to those frequencies. I put a graphic eq pedal in line and sort of fixed it, but there was still the feedback problem. This was with a Victor Baker 17' archtop. My feeling is that if I have to do extensive modifications to make a piece of equipment work, maybe I should just try something else. Originally Posted by xuoham
I'm now playing a Sadowsky SS-15.... problem solved! (kind of an expensive solution, though!)
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i use a piezo pup and plug directly into my software, through my saffire interface. i get a fairly clean and natural sound
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I checked a few youtube clips of the Sadowsky SS-15, especially Leo Amuedo ... what a sound ! But it's just a mag PU isn't it ? Is ther an acoustic pickup inside? (doesn't look like)
Anway, beautiful !
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Paul Hughes,
A lot of what has been posted in reply is over my head in technology, but for what it's worth here's my input.
I tried the Fishman transducer bridge years ago on a New York built Epiphone DeLuxe. The driest thing I've ever heard. Just touch the finger to the string, it sounded like sand shifting in a desert.
I blend bridge-mounted transducers with a floating magnetic, that gives me a decent sound...Too much transducer and again it sounds awful.
I have always hesitated with the condenser mike idea, because of playing in a big band, and because of the possibility of feedback.
Tailpieces: I have a suspicion that the ebony waisted tailpieces will result in a more "focused" sound. Especially when hooked around the strap pin at the bottom with a heavy cord. Why do I think so? Take a look at what they do with upright basses.
But getting back to transducers, the problem is the potential dryness of the sound. If anything, I think a lot of them are over-sensitive. I have four archtops on which I blend bridge-mounted transducer and magnetic floating pickup. I am trying to avoid the bother of additional technical gizmos.
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I recently acquired a beautiful vintage Harmony acoustic archtop and have been researching ways to amplify it for playing with my group. Some of my criteria were not too expensive (having just spent a decent amount out of pocket on the guitar), no permanent modifications like endpin reaming, and no replacement bridge. I thought about a floating HB but wanted something quite different from my other jazz guitar.
I ended up ordering a Barcus Berry Outsider (piezo), along with a Fishman Pro-Eq II preamp. I am hopeful this will give me the natural sound I'm looking for at a price I can live with.
Barcus Berry was pivotal in developing the piezo pickup for instruments. I have had a good experience with piezos in my classical guitar, and with the right preamp and amplifier settings they can sound very natural and warm.
I will give it a try and let you know what I think.
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I've long sought an answer to this very same question, and tried the mic/pickup combos, piezos, just mics and so on. Piezos usually are a little bright if you want a warm acoustic sound. They tend to highlight at the squeaks and squawks. I settled for a Fishman Rare Earth. They do a combo with a mic, but it doesn't improve the sound much IMO. Played through an AER amp with warm strings like Elixir, or even GHS flatwounds, which tend to be a bit brighter than other flatwounds, you get close to an archtop acoustic sound. Another idea for an amp is just to play into a good small PA system, without any monitor. Seymour Duncan does a similar mic/pickup combo, and Benedetto pickups can be acoustic in quality. Small venues which allow you to keep your amp turned down, means you can project some of the acoustic quality of your guitar.
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Update--I have gotten and installed the Barcus Berry pickup--it's a narrow bar about 3 inches long that attaches to the guitar top just above the bridge with 2-sided foam tape. It is prewired to an external jack, which unfortunately won't fit beneath my pickguard so I zip-tied it to the tailpiece.
Without a preamp it sounded awful--the squawk was horrible, plus a loud ground hum. I ran it through my EH HumDebugger, which got rid of the ground hum, and through a Fishman Pro-Eq II preamp. After a little fiddling I got a good sound. (This required turning down the piezo input strength on the back, otherwise the input was too strong and sound too harsh.) The sliders are set more or less flat, with the brilliance slider turned way down to minimize squeak and string noise.
I am using a Fender SCXD amp. I have gotten good sounds from the standard clean Blackface model, as well as the Acoustasonic and JazzKing emulations. I find that with the clean channel I have to roll off the treble almost all the way, whereas the others can take some treble. Bass set about 4-5, a little less reverb than with my other guitars (2-3).
I am planning on getting flatwound bronze strings to minimize the string noise, which is the remaining gremlin yet to be tamed. Otherwise I think I have a nice acoustic sound that is quite different from my other magnetic pickup guitars and has that vintage archtop vibe.
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