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Thanks for your post...but I've been thinking, would the 7w Goodsell really be loud enough to give me clean headroom to play with a 20 piece band that includes drums and electric bass? Perhaps some other people could offer your thoughts on this. I play with a tele-style solid body that has quite a low-output pickup (it's a Buscarino pickup, so it's voiced for jazz), but still I worry that my chords will distort at high volumes.
Originally Posted by Dad3353
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09-15-2011 07:37 PM
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It almost seems as though you think it is necessary for you to outdrown the whole band at full cry with your guitar. It's not. Like I wrote earlier, when comping, you should be felt more than heard. You must blend with the other instruments, not be on top of them volume wise. I'd say that you don't need to be louder than any of the horns or the piano. It's a common mistake in bands to turn up amps to "be heard". More often than not it leads to a deafening sound level in which nuances are lost. Benny Carter once heard a band playing really soft and beatiful and he remarked:"Now, that sounded like mice pissing on cotton." Originally Posted by coolvinny
If horn players in the Basie band claimed that they couldn't hear Freddie Green, Basie always answered: "That's because you play too loud!"
If the band is really loud, it's likely because it's miked and run through a PA. In that case, mike your amp and run it to the PA like the other instruments. A Shure SM57 mike is tried and tested and affordable for this. If you are miking an acoustic guitar, a small membrane condenser mike is what is generally preferred (get one with a battery compartment, so you don't have to rely on Phantom Power, which may or may not be available in th PA system), though the Shure SM57 will work for this too.
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Good morning, coolvinny... Originally Posted by coolvinny
Yes, your chords will distort at high volume, but why would you be playing at high volume..? I'm with oldane on this (see above post...). The real test is to try it and see. Your guitar seems excellent for the task (jazz-voiced tele-style..? Ideal...) so, unless the band have a heavy rock-based repertoire (yes, this exists..! Our local regional orchestra has a fine Zappa set which requires more of the guitar than chord vamping...), I would at least give your present set-up a chance.
Of course, it may be that you are really only looking for a pretext to acquire an amp..!
Nothing wrong with that (we've all done it, regularly..!). In that case, a Fender Twin Reverb will cater for a whole lifetime of band work, but is heavy. I am paricularly fond of the Roland JC-120, equally heavy.
Hope this helps...
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I playing in a big band.
Power needs 60 Watts or more.
Important ; every practice is without PA.
in this case of you, solid guitar, only amp's sounds.
volumes needs for all menbers.
some event is also no PA, needs the amp's power for audience.
I using Peterson(100W) and Twin Reverb(100W type)Last edited by kawa; 09-16-2011 at 05:26 AM.
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Talking 'watts' is of little help here, as the question is really 'volume' (or 'clean volume'...). A 30w Vox AC30 will drown most bugles, imho. An 18w Marshall cuts glass. A 7w valve amp is quite damned loud.
The 'acid test' is to try it and see...
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I have loved the Twin Reverb for decades and find it to be the ultimate jazz amp, but have not at all loved its weight. I'd say, it's the best amp I have never owned, but I certainly won't want to carry it upstairs to the n'th floor (if I were rich I could hire a roadie to do that, but doing it myself with my knee arthrosis - no way). Originally Posted by Dad3353
If you want to buy a more powerful amp, as others have suggested, check out the modern "jazz amps" with lightweight neodynium speakers like Polytone, Henriksen, JazzCat, Evans etc. Many also like the Roland Cube 80 which is very affordable. They are much more portable. They are solid state, but sound good. An advantage with solid state is they sound equally good at both low and high volumes. A Twin Reverb will not reveal its full tone potential before it is at a certain volume - and that is not bedroom level. If one doesn't play that loud a more moderately powered amp may be a better choice. That's why jazz guitatarists with a taste for Fender tube amps often select a Princeton Reverb or mayby a Deluxe/Deluxe Reverb.
A downside to high power is feed back, which will not be an issue with you solid body guitar. But I suspect you could want a full body archtop one of these days.....
But like others have said, try it out first with the gear you already have. It's an old truth that gear (goes for music, photography and everything else) always feels double as heavy when there's a vague feeling back in your mind that its purchace was unnecessary.Last edited by oldane; 09-16-2011 at 05:41 AM.
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It will be loud enough for sure, but I doubt that a 7w amp will deliver a sufficiently clean tone (unmiked that is), if that's what you're after.
Tube amps: in a band with rythm section (drums, electrified bass) and horns and/or singers, I don't feel comfortable with anything less then 25-40 watts (4xEL84 or 2x6L6, depending on the amp's configuration). A 2xEL84 amp like Fender's Blues Junior (15 watts) is too small for me if I want a clean, undistorted tone. It would be perfect if you want some dirt in your tone.
As far as solid-state amps go: I had a Cube 30x (30 watts) that wouldn't cut it with drums and horns. I have a Session Rockette 30 (also 30 watts) that easily cuts it, so it depends on the amp (and the way the output was measured).
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Well, I shall be playing with two different big(gish) bands at a party tonight. One plays more traditional big band material (5 saxes, 3 trumpets, 3 'bones, piano, me, bass and drums); the other is a little more modern (3 altos, 4 tenore, 3 trumpets, guitar/bass/drums). I will be expected to play Frddie Green 4-in-a-bar rhythm with the first, more sparsely 9and will get a solo or two) with the second.
My set-up will be my Vestax D'Angelico NYL-5 into a Henriksen Jazzamp 10; for the second outfit, I will add a Boss FDR pedal to give a more upfront, electric kind of sound (minute amounts of reverb and gain, everything else set mostly flat). Volume on the Henriksen never goes above 1/4. For soloing I use a Carl Marting Hydra to give a clean boost (+15db) without colouring the sound,.
Volume is not the key, but headroom is. I'm far from convinced that a 7 watt valve amp could give me the clarity at a decent level to play the roles expected of me by those two bands. YMMV.
Personally, I'd contemplate a Deluxe Reverb Reissue or somesuch.
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I am certainly NOT looking to drown out the band, as my role will primarily be rythym (though I will also take solos), but I definitely want to be louder than Freddie Green and not just 'felt' but also 'heard'. Hopefully the Super 7 does the job with enough clean headroom to provide a satisfying tone. If it does not, then I think I will just sell it and replace it with a Comins mini 1 x 12, which has 60w, weighs a manageable 33 lbs and probably sounds better than the solid state alternatives. (I can live with the $1,600 price if it is my only amp)
Thanks again for all the suggestions and opinions. The first rehearsal is in a month so I'll report back after I've tried out the Super 7 in the band setting.
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Pllease scroll down to the Goodsell Super 7 GOODSELL Amplifiers Home of the Super 17
Goodsell Super 7 Class A Guitar Amplifier:Guitars, Pedals Amps EffectsLast edited by kawa; 09-17-2011 at 05:50 AM.
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I'm also using the WT-80 in a big band. Did the first gig with it last saturday and it really offered anything I looked for : easy to carry around, sturdy, quiet when not playing, clean pure jazz - kind of nasal - sound at all volumes. Jazz Police is on the setlist too, never tought of using an overdrive for it. I think it's worth trying- thanks for the tip. Originally Posted by mrblues
e.
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I have been playing with a big band for about four years. I also play with a six piece jazz group, a rock trio and a country group.
I've been using a Fender Blues Deluxe on Gigs and a Blues Junior for rehersals. The Deluxe is a 40 watt amp and Junior is 15.
This weekend, I have to play outdoors where there is no electricity available. I have a Traynor TVM10 battery operated amp that I will be using. Last year at the same gig, I used it with a Epi. Joe Pass. No problem playing rhythm and soloing. The Traynor will run for about four hours on a charge. It also has a mic input (XLR), so I can plug in a Shure SM57 oe 58 and use it for vocals also.
I have found that the Blues Junior will cover just about any gig that I play at...Big Band, Jazz, Blues and Country. My back certainly appreciates it also.
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In my experience the Blues Junior can be loud for 15w and has the regular fender sound with lots of mids / highs that help to cut trough. BUT the sound of the amp changes a lot when cranked - and I am not talking about headroom. Even staying clean the amp looses all the sweetness when turned up. And I don't think its very light for its size / wattage.
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Or a JC 120. Originally Posted by max chill
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Just about any amp will work. Remember that a 5 watt class A tube amp will generally be as loud as a trumpet. Can you hear a trumpet solo with a big band? Yup. It doesn't take much. Odds are that the big band will rarely if ever let you solo, so all you want is for the chop, chop, chop, chop of your rhythm to sneak in there nicely with the bass.
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What's a big band?
If it's patterned after some of Stan Kenton's efforts, a rhythm player would almost need a Fender Twin just to be felt by the brass section and still would never be heard by the audience.
If it's more like Count Basie's, and if they back off when you take a guitar solo, just about anything on the market with a good clean sound would get the job done.
Charlie Christian set the world on fire as part of Benny Goodman's orchestra with a Gibson EH-150 amp that was nominally rated at 15 watts ( albeit by liars, and it was really more like 10~12 watts ).
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I play in a 15 piece dance band (Glenn Miller kind of stuff) using my Roland Cube 60. It's really satisfying and gives me all the loudness I need. For some crunchy/lead sounds I'm using a Yekill&Hyde overdrive-distortion pedal.
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Hmm...good point. I suppose my amp is louder than a trumpet. I will take the Goodsell to the first rehearsal next month and then assess. If it is not clean enough, then I will consider the Comins mini 1x12, but I will also consider the ZT Club. (I just picked up a used ZT Lunchbox with the nifty carrying case for 50% of the online prices, and I'm very impressed with it. The Club's price seems more than fair for what it does) Originally Posted by Strickland
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I always come back to the deluxe reverb... Perfect cheap grab and go with plenty of headroom for it's size. If your miking out, I think it would do the trick as far as stage presence for you.
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42 lbs is way too heavy... Originally Posted by Newport
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Wow I didn't realize it was 42lbs...! After lugging my rigs around for so long a deluxe feels like a lunch box! Sorry...
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[quote=coolvinny;170333]Hi all,
So I'm going to start playing with a community jazz band next month. I spoke to the 'conductor' (a trumpet player) and she tells me it will probably be a 20 piece group with lots of brass/horns. There will be drums and electric bass too.
I'm not worried about feedback since I have a nice solid body guitar, but I'm worried about my amp. I have a Goodsell Super 7 amp which - yup, you guessed it... - puts out 7 watts of tube power. It has a 12" speaker.
Do you guys think this will be loud enough and, if not, could you offer me some suggestions? I have been lusting over the 60 watt Comins 1x12 jazz amp, though at $1,600 it's more than I want to pay. I have a brass instrument for which I can get probably $600 in trade-in value at the local (giant) music shop, so I'd appreciate non-boutique amp suggestions in hopes that they will carry that model and I can make a nice (partial) trade. I'd also like something not too big and heavy. The trunk of my car is pretty darn small and I hate lugging heavy stuff.
Coolvinny, don't blame you one bit, about the heavy stuff. As it happens I play in a community band here in Oz Land. I play big band rhythm guitar, my speialty. I mostly use a 65-watt Crate, it is probably more than enough most of the time. No particular reason for that brand of amp, just something as an average workhorse. It seems to have enough volume.
I've heard someone else in a big band seem to get away with a Roland
Cube 30, if memory serves.
I should also mention I am driving a 30-pece band, not for the faint-hearted. Outdoor gigs they use a PA and put a mike in front of the amp.
If you haven't played big band rhythm before, here's some clues....
1) AVOID emphasising the bass tone. Big mistake! Instead, go for "definition" because you're not playing mellow jazz. Think of it like a Johnny Walker Red. Cheap whisky but good mixer. Not great tone on its own, but great with the band, that's what you're after.
2)FORGET about the textbook chords. Another poster alluded to this. You are now on the near-forgotten side road, one the mainstream ignores. Leave the top notes to the horns, go for the "midriff". That means your chord notes are straddling the lower treble clef and the upper bass clef, allowing for the degree of the melody.
Think of it like socking the practise dummy with boxing gloves on. You're not going to hit it high, and you're not going to hit it low. Give it the business right in the breadbasket.
3) DYNAMICS. That means heavier strings, higher action. Big bands habitually use dynamics, small groups seldom or not at all. The string wieght and action should give you room for some dynamic range, though not as much as the horns. Avoid using a flat top, they're not robust enough.
4)BUCKY PIZZARELLI. He put out a thin booklet called "Power Guitar" many years ago. It's really about the Big Band chord method. A very good starting point, it will be your Bible pending variations that come up in certain tunes, in certain situations. I recommend finding it, worth the search.
Okay, that almost sounds like a rant. If this is new to you, hope it helps.
But in any case, enjoy! (And welcome to the "Dinosaur Club".
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So as it turns out, there is another guitar player who will also be playing. Therefore...big band with two guitar players! He prefers to chunk chunk chunk it out, which leaves me space in the next register to hit the guide tones and make little chord stabs.
My 7w Goodsell had power to spare. In fact, next week I'm bringing my ZT Lunchbox instead, since I don't really have to worry about the low end.
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Vinny, looks like my remarks could be more relevant for the other guitar player. I think I also assumed it would be essentially a big band type of concept, although I could be wrong about that. I hope you have fun with it, I don't know how it will work with two guitars, though as you say he is doing the rhythm. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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With two guitarists and a piano player (?) + of course the rest of the band, I think you will need to work out carefully, what each of you will play, if the arranger hasn't done it already in the arrangements. It's so easy to step on each others toes and make it sound like a mess. Originally Posted by coolvinny
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