what is jazz tone or sound?

[MarkRhodes]

Flannery O'Connor wrote great short stories and had a great line about writers.
"A writer," she said, "can do anything he can get away with, but no one's ever been able to get away with very much."

One could say the same of jazz guitar players. Charlie Christian, Wes, Grant, Kenny, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, those guys could really play. They could swing and they could sing. Some were more versatile than others, some may have been comfortable with a broader range of material or in wider array of settings (-orchestra, small groups, duets, solo), but they could all play the hell out of their guitars.
The key to a jazz tone is that it allows the playing to come through clear and distinct.

[The Poppster]

ChrisDowning . . . Excellent post man! Certainly makes perfect sense to me.

[cjm]

I guess everyone knows that old style woody jazz guitar sound and as soon as you use it everyone expects a jazzy melody.

I don't necessarily disagree, but it got me to thinking:

That's akin to defining the sound of a piano as old style, or old fashioned, rather than simply the sound of a piano. The implication is that it is somehow "quaint."

It also is a fact that some people detest an electric guitar sound other than the clean sound associated today with jazz. Truth be told, I'm one of them.

Instead of "the jazz sound" being a cliche in the modern world, I contend distortion and floppy strings have become the tired guitar cliche of the past 45 years or so...and that this is often employed as a "security blanket" to reassure unsophisticated audiences that, "Hey, we can rock too -- we're not just old fuddy duddy jazz players."

And if the subdued appearing archtop electric's primary, or even sole, purpose is as a visual prop, then the same must be true of the brightly painted slab, or the ratty looking "relic."

It is true that semi-solids and solids can deliver "the jazz sound," and that they're very popular among session musicians. But it is also true that most recording sessions aren't jazz sessions.

Moreover, while the acoustic properties of the electric archtop are not usually very important to the tone heard by the listening audience, the greater aural and tactile feedback to the guitarist often is, as is the effect the sound box has in "shaping" the notes played.

With the electric guitar (setting aside entirely the acoustic classical and "Gypsy" sounds), once we get away from the clean sound, it quickly becomes more a demonstration of the electronic hardware brought to the gig and musicianship takes a back seat to the fuzz, delay, chorus, flangers, etc.

[hot ford coupe]

It also is a fact that some people detest an electric guitar sound other than the clean sound associated today with jazz. Truth be told, I'm one of them.
.

Oh man, is that one really true statement. I do a regular thing with a synagogue choir. Before they actually heard me, they didn't want me anywhere near the place when they found out I use an amplifier. Their first response was "Well I don't know. That's going to be way too loud for choir". When they finally heard me and heard a nice clean sweet sound that fit well with the electric piano (catch the irony here) and didn't over power anyone, they loved it. I'm not indispenible but the choir director prefers me there over me not being there by far.

[cjm]

Their first response was "Well I don't know. That's going to be way too loud for choir".

That's why I maintain that a loud nasty distorted sound has become an overworked and tired cliche.

You can't even walk into a pawn shop these days to look for a wrench without being assailed by a Fender Twin cranked up to "11" while some guy whacks at some out of tune slab delivering his rendition of his special Stairway to Heaven/In A Gadda da Vida medley.

[ChrisDowning]

CJM - I think we actually agree. There's no doubt in my mind that player do use the look of an f hole archtop to look the part - but that doesn't mean I don't understand the sound that shape and design adds to the genre. And i completely agree with the comments on just amp and guitar - no effects. Although effects can enhance the timbre, it's nearly always overdone and thins out the tone of a good guitar.

Basically I think any quality guitar (and quality amp if needed) can be used for jazz. But there are some odd shapes and designs that make statements of their own that have little to do with the sound, the experience, playability, and everything to do with image. If that weren't true most marketing managers working for the big companies would be out of a job.

[cjm]

CJM - I think we actually agree. There's no doubt in my mind that player do use the look of an f hole archtop to look the part - but that doesn't mean I don't understand the sound that shape and design adds to the genre. And i completely agree with the comments on just amp and guitar - no effects. Although effects can enhance the timbre, it's nearly always overdone and thins out the tone of a good guitar.

Basically I think any quality guitar (and quality amp if needed) can be used for jazz. But there are some odd shapes and designs that make statements of their own that have little to do with the sound, the experience, playability, and everything to do with image. If that weren't true most marketing managers working for the big companies would be out of a job.

Well, where does the Epiphone/Gibson Howard Roberts fit in? No f holes, just a big oval void.

You're absolutely correct that any of the three types (solid, semi, hollow -- including some flat tops) can deliver the clean jazz sound. Twenty years ago I often played bass with a superb guitarist who usually played one of several carved and/or plywood Epiphones, but who often used a Strat in rooms with bad acoustics where strange feedback problems would crop up.

And the mere existence of semi-solid guitars like the ES-335 lends credence to the idea that appearance is more important than anything else. The hollow wings and f holes don't do much on what is basically a solid body guitar.

But I do believe that the ergonomics of a light weight archtop (which to me includes aural and tactile feedback from the guitar to the guitarist) are at least as important as the visual impact of the archtop. For me, perhaps it is because I also spent so many years on the upright bass -- it is as much by feel as it is by ear.

Audiences today are accepting of the appearance of slabs -- would they be put off by the appearance of a Les Paul in a jazz setting? I don't think so.

So, in the final analysis, I think it comes down to what the individual guitarist needs in terms of "feel." To me, a slab gives me a vague sense of operating a remote control guitar, and it is slightly disorienting. Others feel like an archtop is a big quivering feedback bomb just waiting to explode.

Your comments on marketing are spot on. The performance of jazz is an art (or it should be). The tools of that art are supplied by an industry that survives by persuading sufficient numbers of performers to spend themselves broke on stuff they don't need.

[ChrisDowning]

Well my Takamine flat top with the single cutaway and sunburst is the one I would aways reach for in a jazzy situation. And nobody has ever asked where are the F holes? However I heard a guy in Tennessee, Jeff Jenkins, playing Django and swing stuff on a Martin D28 and it sounded fine. And a little later about 20 of us had a go at 'Minor Swing' on similar guitars - so it can be done and sound very good. But I have to admit that there was a nagging feeling that at any moment I was going to hear 'Arkansas Traveller' at 250BPM.