Johnny Smith Pickup for Acoustic Strings?

**kamlapati** · 11-28-2010, 09:57 PM

Do any of you have experience using a Johnny Smith style pick up with acoustic strings?

My '77 L-5CN currently has a Bartolini floating PU, added probably in the 90's. I'm not a fan of the sound, it's too hot and has too much bass.

I use 85/15 bronze .013 strings on the guitar to bring out the acoustic tone, and I would like to capture some of that with the PU.

Any experience with a JS and acoustic strings?

Can I use the pole-piece adjustment to balance the string output?

Any advice appreciated!

**backliner** · 11-29-2010, 01:08 AM

A real Gibson Johnny Smith pickup has a bar magnet in one coil, and a metal plate underneath to conduct the magnetism up through the adjustable polepieces within the other coil. They screw adjusts will vary the sensitivity a little.
With acoustic strings, the wound strings will sound "thinner" because likely only the cores will be "read" by the pickup. It may sound brighter therefore.
It's unlikely the balance will be great, but perhaps it will work.

I knew a guy who swore by bronze acoustic strings on a Guild he previously didn't like the sound of (it had full size humbuckers though).

Worth an experiment I'd say.

**kamlapati** · 11-30-2010, 04:47 PM

I've been using bronze strings on my archtops for years, and although I can hear the string balance difference if I focus on it, IMO it doesn't effect playability at all. Perhaps I have adjusted and I don't hit the plain strings as hard as some players, but it is unconscious. At least that is the case for the Bartolini I mentioned and the Kent Armstrong hand made single coil that I have on another guitar, neither of which have adjustable pole pieces.

How much difference do the adjustable pole pieces make? Has anyone done the experiment?

**MikeJ** · 12-01-2010, 05:06 AM

Hmm I have a Johnny Smith Guitar and use it acoustically 99% of the time due for some new strings I might just give the Bronze strings a try.

Give me a few days and I will let you know how it sounds.

cheers

Mike

**rpguitar** · 12-01-2010, 10:33 AM

I don't have a "real" Johnny Smith pickup, but I have the clones with adjustable poles on Eastman archtops. I also have an Armstrong PAF with adjustable poles on my Forshage archtop.

The poles make a big difference in terms of balancing the output for different types of strings, including bronze.

I have a DeArmond FHC on my L-5N and while it has no adjustment, the output is pretty much balanced for bronze strings, and out of whack for nickel. I think they were designed for players using (as the original instructions say) a "regular F-hole guitar" (acoustic).

**kamlapati** · 12-01-2010, 02:12 PM

Mike, I am on record as being a big fan of 85/15 bronze strings for my acoustic archtops. They have great balance and punch, but a little less high end "zing." One thing is for sure: different brands, sizes, and alloys will sound really different. Keep us posted!

RP: Thanks, great info, just what I was looking for. And I wish someone made a modern equivalent of that DeArmond FHC.

**MikeJ** · 12-02-2010, 11:21 PM

Kamlapati

OK tried to get hold of some 85/15 strings but not available at my local store so bought some D'addario EJ18 Phosphor Bronze 014-059 to see how they compared to my regular strings Archtop by Newtone 014-058..

Acoustically the lower end is a bit brighter and slightly louder than the Newtone's. I was surprised at how well the pickup worked with these strings however the volume thru the amp was noticeably lower.

I adjusted the little screws in the pickup as far as I could to try and balance the output volume of each string however the top E and B remained noticeably louder thru the AMP.

There is also significantly more squeaks and fret noises from the brass strings vs the Newtone..

My initial feelings are to stay with the Nickel (Newtone's) as they are better all purpose however will wear these in a bit and see what happens.

Hopefully that's helped..

Regards

Mike

**kamlapati** · 12-04-2010, 07:08 PM

Mike, great info. That's why love this place, real players, with real life experience.

My own experience with acoustic strings is that there is great tonal difference from brand to brand and type to type. OTOH, I bet that the "through the amp" tone doesn't vary as much. Different brands do have different core to wrap diameter ratios, so that might effect the balance somewhat, however.

I'm hooked on acoustic strings. It's my sound, and I play straight into a mic as often as I amp up. Although I'm not going to electric strings, I am trying to minimize the balance issues.

**kamlapati** · 12-06-2010, 12:30 PM

I just bought a Lollar JS PU. I'll be replacing my Bartolini and will report back on tone, and string balance issues.

**SamBooka** · 12-06-2010, 01:22 PM

Have I ever told you how much I love Lollar pickups?? just curious

**MikeJ** · 12-18-2010, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by MikeJ

Kamlapati

There is also significantly more squeaks and fret noises from the brass strings vs the Newtone..

My initial feelings are to stay with the Nickel (Newtone's) as they are better all purpose however will wear these in a bit and see what happens.

Just a follow up to say I couldn't get the Brass strings to balance thru the JS pickup, my guess is that there isnt sufficient adjustment on the original pickups.

So back to the Newtone's for me

Cheers

Mike

**kamlapati** · 12-18-2010, 06:11 PM

Thanks for the experiments, Mike. My guitar is now at the shop getting it's new PU. I'll let you all know how it turns out. As long as the balance isn't worse than before, I should be OK.

**hot ford coupe** · 12-18-2010, 06:42 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

I have a DeArmond FHC on my L-5N and while it has no adjustment, the output is pretty much balanced for bronze strings, and out of whack for nickel. I think they were designed for players using (as the original instructions say) a "regular F-hole guitar" (acoustic).

That's exactly the same experience I had with the FHC pickup. If you can ever get ahold of one of those things, it really makes a difference.

**kamlapati** · 01-01-2011, 06:20 PM

The Lollar JS pickup is installed and all set on my L-5. The sound is just what I wanted and expected, a little more highs, more acoustic sounding than the Bartolini. The gold looks good, and it's more "period correct" as wekk. The default balance of the strings is no different, so I'll be playing with the polepieces a bit before I'm done.

I really like the sound so far, it's definitely closer to the acoustic sound of the guitar, without the muffled rolled off treble sound I'm so tired of. And anyway, if I want that, I've got tone controls on my amp.

**rpguitar** · 01-01-2011, 10:44 PM

This is great to know about. I'm also hooked on acoustic strings, and I am trying to make a decision about what pickup to put on a new custom 16" archtop that's under construction. The Lollar is now officially another viable choice. It's that, or the Kent Armstrong single coil with the 2 tap options - I think...

**Elias Graves** · 01-03-2011, 10:19 AM

I'm fighting the same battle right now. I have an import Armstrong JS without polepieces. It balances poorly with acoustic strings. Armstrong handwounds as well as Lindy Fralin offer models balanced for bronze strings. I'm saving up for one now.

EG

**kamlapati** · 01-03-2011, 04:43 PM

RP, I have a version of the Armstrong single coil on my Grimes Montreux and it's one of my favorite PUs. Mine came with the guitar in '95 and it has a smooth ebony like cover, no visible polepieces, so I'm not sure how else it might differ form the currently available ones, but it sounds great.

Eli, I'll be looking into the Fralin too. Thanks for the tip.

**yaugnotsac** · 01-15-2011, 11:36 PM

Hi, I am in the process in bying a vintage 50's Gibson Johnny Smith pickup for my solid top Epiphone emperor regent archtop guitar and I am wondering If the vintage ones are better than the new ones made by Seymore Duncan or by Kent Armstrong or others ? I have a korean kent armstrong floating pickup on it now but I am not quite satisfied with the non defined tone even through a vintage 1964 Fender vibroverb... do you know something about this? thanks

**kamlapati** · 01-16-2011, 01:10 AM

FYI the Gibson Johnny Smith guitar normally associated with the JS PU came out in '61. The Guild JS model of the fifties usually had a DeArmond if I'm not mistaken.

Back on topic, the Lollar JS was the only one I could find that matched the original imedance of 6.3K. The Duncan and the handmade Armstrong are probably great PUs, but they are up in the 8K range. That might sound like what a lot of people expect from a jazz PU, but it won't be the Johnny Smith sound. The lower impedance gives it a more balanced bass / treble response compared to a lot of pickups.

**yaugnotsac** · 01-16-2011, 09:46 AM

Hi kamlapati

Thanks a lot for the info but I am still wondering if I am chosing the right pickup for my first archtop guitar which I like a lot considering the low price I paid. Of course it is not a Gibson L5 but it satisfies my needs for the moment.
I just want this guitar to sound at it's best since it is a rare solid top model of the early 80's or 90's...
So do you think a vintage JS would be better than a new one?

Thanks again for your time and knowledge
Your music is pretty cool also as I went and visit your site
"circle around the sun"
beautifull sounding guitars also

**kamlapati** · 01-16-2011, 05:33 PM

Hi Y,

Just my personal opinion, but there are many good modern pick ups to choose from, and since you are unlikely to find the perfect PU on the first try, the one that matches the sound in your head, you should plan on experimenting for a while.

The JS fits my style, but it is not for everybody. I aspire much more for the Joe Pass or Johnny Smith sound, not the Wes Montgomery sound.

Back on to the original topic, everyone... !

I adjusted the pole pieces on my new JS, it's pretty much the easiest guitar adjustment I've ever done, and it really improves the balance! I can't believe I haven't ever done this before! Wow, what a nice cheap way to tweak your sound.

I actually mentioned this thread to my teacher last week and he showed me how he had adjusted all of his guitars, solid bodies included. He thought that it was an important part of any setup, and that the factory default is never the best.

Anyway, I recommend that you all take a look at it.

**yaugnotsac** · 01-18-2011, 01:03 PM

My luthier has original gibson JS 1961 pickup from a old jazz musicien friend of his and I think I will go for it cause I don't want to let it by...
On My Epiphone emperor regent rare solid top it should sound just fine.

Thanks for reassuring me.