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I think you've probably heard of contractual obligations of having a paid endorsement? Not saying the guitar doesn't sound good in that clip but there's a reason he's rarely photographed with anything other than ibanez. The reason he switched to Ibanez was that the Japanese valued having a jazz guitarist representing them and were willing to make him a great offer, an artist model which included royalties and customized to his preferences. Unfortunately, the american companies were preoccupied with signing rock stars and were not interested in catering to what George wanted...
Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
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02-21-2014 10:45 AM
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Hot damn!!! An "ugly headstock" comment unrelated to Heritager guitars. Who'd-a thought it was possible. lolol Originally Posted by AlainJazz
But, in seriousness . . your comments about "good enough" or even better are spot on.
No offense meant to the OP, but I'm always amused, and confused as well . . about someone stating that they are looking to get "that L5 tone". With all of the subjectivity associated with "tone" . . how could such a question not start the shit storm we've seen in this thread? We all like to opine. But, how can anyone actually disagree with an opinion . . as opposed to respecting that opinion and then offering your own?
When someone says they would like to get that L5 tone . . I always like to ask, which L5 tones are they seeking? The ones Wes used to get when his recordings sounded Great? Or the ones Wes used to get what his recordings sounded like shit? The tones Wes got when he played his L5 through a Standel Imperial? Or the ones he got when he play his L5 through his mod'ed Fender amp? The ones Grant Geisman gets from his L5? Or the ones Lee Ritenour gets from his? Tuck Andress? How about Louis Stewart? I could probably mention 10 or 12 others.
The point is . . while there are undoubtedly similarities in the tone from an L5CES . . mostly due to the top carve thickness and the bracing coming off of the tone bars and extending to the outer edges of the top . . many L5CES players had/have different tone. This is obviously due to a wide variety of variables; pick type, pick attack, pick orientation, amps, recording techniques and qualities, the overall condition of any given L5 being played, the specific model of L5 . . (L5C, L5CT, L5 CES, L5Wes), strings . . etc..
Shit man, some people can't even get an L5CES tone . . from an L5CES!!!Last edited by Patrick2; 02-21-2014 at 04:24 PM.
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havne't played an aria L5 but a buddy of mine had the Aria Herb Ellis and I thought it was a great guitar. They've always made great archtops and they are the manufacturer for the Sadowsky line so they know their stuff!
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My apologies for derailing this thread with the Japanese lawsuit guitars...that was not my original intent. Originally Posted by jzucker
Yes, those of us who lived through the 60's-70's remember the drill...and even when FUSION raised its head.
I wonder though, before Ibanez signed GB, how well respected they were as an archtop builder. And how GB's previous exposure to Ibanez lawsuit guitars may have influenced his decision to sign with them?
BTW...thanks for mentioning the BODY TALK LP...That didn't fall upon deaf ears, for that album was my GB coming out party. I'd been diggin' him from the CTI recording sessions, namely Freddie Hubbard's 'first light' LP....now those were the daze...overseas...young, dumb and...well let's not go there!
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I didn't know that. Anyways, the sadowsky is definitely better quality than the aria was but like I said, it was an older model. It really looked great but sounded muddy no matter what I tried. When I got the real L5, it was like a breath of fresh air. Originally Posted by jzucker
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You are absolutely right about quality, in the Uk we have a wonderful Jazz guitarist,
Dave Cliff, who plays an Epihone (and used to) also play a Strat, if you listen to his
Cd's one cannot fail to be impressed by his tone aside from fluidity.
I own a used GB100 among other instruments which has a lovely soft tone IMHO
better than a GB10 or GB200 which i have had also. Larry Carlton says " Its all in
the fingers" .
Best
Silverfoxx
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So what are the best and most accurate copies of the Gibson L5ces out there? I see Ibanez, Aria, Greco... "Lawsuit era" etc. Which ones do the best job on the details,sound, etc?
I am aware than no copy is a real Gibson, I'm just curious what the all around best copies of this model are?
-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf
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not exactly an L-5 copy, but I really like my 70s Aria PE-180's.
it's features are kind of based on a Gibson Super 5.
laminated top, back and sides unlike the Gibson but otherwise very similar.
long scale like an L-5.
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Wintermoon,
+1
I have one of those. I think it is a better guitar than the Ibanez 2460. I happen to think the Ibanez 2460 is an excellent guitar, too. However, when it came time for me to plunk my own money down on a gig-able, MIJ Gibson copy, I went with the guitar you see above. It is so good that you will end up playing it (a) when you aren't on the gig, and (b) when you have much more expensive guitars at your disposal.
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agree w/all of it Greentone. the big difference for me over the 2460 is the longer scale length.
I couldn't get used to the 24 3/4" the Ibanez had.
I have one Aria Pro PE-180, the other is marked Greco but obviously the same guitar made in the Matsumoko factory.
now it doesn't sound as sweet as my '69 L-5CES, but it really gets the job done and I use it on gigs where I don't mind it getting dinged.
and you're also right, I found myself practicing on it acoustically for about 6 months.
I almost had to force myself to go back to my vintage acoustic archtops, that Aria plays so good.
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But is it ethical...just kidding.
Not a CES but this is my contribution. An Aria PE-190 Robert Conti model. I purchased this direct from Bob in 1977. Went through several pickup changes and ended up with a Kent Armstrong (made by Kent) 12 pole floater. It is the essence of an L5 with a floating pickup.Last edited by rob taft; 04-18-2016 at 04:58 PM.
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I have an Epiphone elitist broadway. Same shape width and scale length. Pressed top. Very high quality. Obviously the headstock is different as are some of the bindings, pickguard and tailpiece, but it is close.
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I'd say that's definitely in the ball park of what I'm asking. Dimensionally is it like the L5? Deep body? Originally Posted by wintermoon
not exactly an L-5 copy, but I really like my 70s Aria PE-180's.
it's features are kind of based on a Gibson Super 5.
laminated top, back and sides unlike the Gibson but otherwise very similar.
long scale like an L-5.
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Do Norlin era Gibsons count as copies? I hear they're pretty good, but not quite the real thing.
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Out of those Id go for the Guild X-700 but the Gb-20 is a very close second. Despite it's size and construction, it has a very focused tone reminiscent of the L5CES. I also had a second Ibanez FA-800 that was more like a Gibson L5CES than the one shown above. The one above was lighter and more acoustically brighter, so more like an L5C
The closest examples are the Ibanez 2470, FA-700, early (guild headstock) FA-800 and 2460. Greco make an L1000 but it isn't imo as close or as good as the others listed and mentioned.
Aria also do an old L5.Last edited by Archie; 04-18-2016 at 08:47 PM.
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Rob,
Your old Robert Conti model--the Aria Pro II PE-190--is even better than the PE-180. 2bornot2bop can comment on this. He just sold his Conti. Those guitars are simply superb. They have a solid top, IIRC, as opposed to the laminated top of the 180. They sound very alive, acoustically and are quite "Johnny Smith" electrically--moreso because of the 3-3/8" body depth.
In answer to lawson-stone's question about dimensions of the 180, the body width is 17". The depth is 3-3/8". Scale length is 25-1/5". Everything is the same as the L-5CES, with the exception of the headstock--which is the same as the Super-400. The guitar sounds great. Here is Robert Conti playing a PE-180:
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ATH, but the FA800 and the GB-20 are floaters... and if I know which 'second FA800' you are talking about, it doesn't sound that CES-ish to me... though it does sound nice.
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Greentone, I'm going to disagree w/you on the 190 being a better guitar. they are excellent instruments for sure.
it may be a bit closer to an L-5 in that it has a carved spruce top, but that makes it closer to an L-5C in my mind.
carved top aside, the twin built in pickup 180 is closer to an L-5CES imo.
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Wintermoon,
Point taken. In any event, the 180 and 190 are my favorite MIJ Gibson copies. Matsumoku even made the 190 with a CC pickup. I have only seen it in the Aria catalog. I'd love to play one.
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Heritage Eagle Classic is a bit thinner, Super Eagle is a bit thinner and a inch wider?
Why go with a copy, get yourself a real L5!!! Life is short, debt and financial distress makes it seem a little longer
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It might just be The Heritage Golden Eagle with the top carved a little thick for an electric response, and with parallel tonebars. The Heritage GEs do vary in construction as some have tops carved thinner.
I like the Guild-Benedetto X700 Stuart or just the standard Guild X700 Stuart or X500 (with laminated rim and back).Last edited by Jabberwocky; 04-19-2016 at 06:41 AM.
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Are you 100% sure? Originally Posted by lawson-stone
The Hoyer Company in Germany built some L5-CES "copies" from the mid to late 70s to the mid 80s. As usual with many German made archtops the Hoyer model numbering and assessment is outrageously difficult to overlook.
In Adrian Ingram's book on the L-5 no single Gibson-made L-5 variant is listed between the years 1980 and 1985, though I'm sure that Gibson was selling some examples even in this dark period. Hoyer, under the leadership of Arnold Hoyer's son, Walter A. Hoyer (not few would call him a rogue), made a few L-5CES knock-offs that look and feel exactly like the "originals", sporting original (OEM) Gibson humbuckers, the correct hardware, the 'open book headstock', and so on.. Hoyer also made a bit more ES-175 and L-4 clones that in terms of quality are often higher regarded than the originals, at least in Germany.
Hoyer started making L-5CES copies around the mid 70s, though the earlier batches were still looking a bit differently: the soundholes were a bit more slanted, the hardware and the pickups were German-made and chrome-plated, the headstock shape and pickguard different. It's amusing that still so many players think guitars not featuring gold-plated HW must be inferior per se - in Germany, outside the ecclesia, gold-colored commodities were historically unpopular.
The models were simply called 3064 (II) or, later on, after Walter A. Hoyer had parted with the Hoyer Company, WAH.060. Btw., the 3064 (I) was a completely different guitar... All these guitars are scarce and hard to come by today!
Here the 'highest' archtop guitar that Hoyer made in the mid 70s, the 3065 'Meister Lang', a reverent tribute to the uncontested German master maker:
Essentially, it is an early 3064 (II) with a few Lang guitar attributes, like the headstock shape, the MOP inlays, the additional binding stripes on the sides. Basically, it's an L-5CES (in terms of the overall construction and sound): 17" wide, deep body with a thin and flattish solid soundboard, unusually strong bracing and two pickups. This one has a lavish depth of 9.6cm or 3.78" and smokes some original L-5CES guitars - I wouldn't say it's a copy, but certainly a brain child of the L-5CES.
Hoyer knew that it was not possible to copy a Lang design more than just by some subtle hints. Fortunately, it still isn't... Lang's materials are almost gone beyond retrieval, as - unfortunately - is his unique knowledge and workmanship.
What is an evil luthier?
Someone who drills a hole in the bottom of the bridge foot and inserts a piece loosely fitting shot...Last edited by Ol' Fret; 04-20-2016 at 06:08 AM.
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I certainly saw Gibson L-5CES guitars in the period 1980-1984 in the Washington, DC, metropolitan area. They could have been NOS instruments, but they were definitely being sold as new guitars at places like Zavarellas, Veneman's, and--IIRC--Giant Music. I know that I played one in Annandale at a music store. I think I played one also at Zav's over near Crystal City. They were both good guitars. I am not certain that they were manufactured post-1980, however.
I don't remember if I saw or played any L5 guitars at that point in time over at Chuck Levin's Washington Music Center in Wheaton.
The L-5CES was in the catalog, at that point, along with the Super-V and the Kalamazoo Award. I clearly recall in 1981 when, for example, Gibson doubled their MSRPs on the expensive archtops. The KA went from $2,800 to $5,000 overnight--only in terms of MSRP--manufacturer's suggested retail price.
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Originally Posted by Greentone
the same thing happened around '90 w/Gibson.
I bought a used mint '89 L-5CESN locally from a music store for $1800.
They had 2 for sale, the other a brand new '90 L-5CESN, for 2K
when I got home there was a Mandolin Brothers flyer in my mailbox w/a notice that Gibson was drastically raising their prices on high end carved tops.
so I went back the next day and bought the '90 too.
then I sent it to Mandolin Brothers and the profit paid for the '89.
mission accomplished.
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